Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Rimfaxe96 said: ↑

Jeremy Stone said: ↑​

OR humanity unites and takes the fight to the dominion, as independence because of political issues does not mean they cannot have an alliance with the other human-dominated provinces.​

As Nenalata already said, not gonna happen without the Empire. Human nations have some grudges among themselves as well, you know, and the first ones to actually do something against that and have some sort of union was the Empire (and at the very beginning the Colovians who tried to keep order). Even during the brutal Ayleid rule with human slaves the smaller human "nations" (lore makes them rather sound like tribes) fought each other than the elves who were picking away at their own neighbourhood. Redguards and Nords have a troubled history also, and High Rock had intrigues among the nobility for ages, probably ever since the Aldmeri were chased off and humans took over.

I'd rather see the Redguards going fo Skyrim in case things would go down to seek refugee there 'cause it's geographically advantaged and would kill every Nord trying to stop them from doing so. Either way, the least thing to do now is to rebel against the only thing keeping a slave colalr from your neck or worse.​

​

At the very least wait until after the next war or how long it may take to get that Dominion down. ​

The point was that we do not know what would happen, so saying anything is speculation at best, and always wrong at worst.

How about splitting Skyrim into nine "mini-provinces" that can choose who to go with for their own people (The current holds)? That would make everybody a high king and make everybody independently able to choose who they want to rule them, themselves or the Empire.

You know, I don't hate this idea. However, a concept such as this is something that will work out well on paper but completely fail when put into practice. Like Alvor said about how things were in, "the bad old days" when Jarls fought amongst each other.

And besides, Markarth and Whiterun already tried this very same thing and failed because they could not compete individually with the more powerful factions. Even if the holds tried something like this ~ Ulfric proved that you've got to have allies and that the other holds will not necessarily respect your good intentions. Jarl Baalgruuf learned this lesson also. Empire proved that in despite of everything, they were patient and exercised good faith in their dealings with independent holds. Tully allowed Jarl Baalgruuf to decide for himself, which is not the mark of true Tyrant.

and yet, they and Istlod did not discuss the WGC with the Jarls when they agreed to it. Just because the High King has the final say does not mean he has the only say. Skyrim was forced into the WGC and they did not truly want it. Some accepted it, while others decided enough was enough and rose up to take their home from the "weakened" Empire.

 

[DrunkenMage]

and yet, they and Istlod did not discuss the WGC with the Jarls when they agreed to it. Just because the High King has the final say does not mean he has the only say. Skyrim was forced into the WGC and they did not truly want it. Some accepted it, while others decided enough was enough and rose up to take their home from the "weakened" Empire.

How is this some kind of valid argument against the Empire? Ulfric isn't exactly planning a democracy, with his "with us or against us" and the all time favorite "we will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim"

Skyrim was hardly forced into the WGC, it was harsh terms. Except none of the Nords even paid attention to it, not everyone worships Talos and many of those that did all had little shrines. Empire did a piss poor job enforcing it.

No one wanted the White-Gold Concordat, but it was the cost of peace to regain strength for a second round.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

and yet, they and Istlod did not discuss the WGC with the Jarls when they agreed to it. Just because the High King has the final say does not mean he has the only say. Skyrim was forced into the WGC and they did not truly want it. Some accepted it, while others decided enough was enough and rose up to take their home from the "weakened" Empire.

How is this some kind of valid argument against the Empire? Ulfric isn't exactly planning a democracy, with his "with us or against us" and the all time favorite "we will do whatever I decide is in the best interests of Skyrim"

Skyrim was hardly forced into the WGC, it was harsh terms. Except none of the Nords even paid attention to it, not everyone worships Talos and many of those that did all had little shrines. Empire did a piss poor job enforcing it.

No one wanted the White-Gold Concordat, but it was the cost of peace to regain strength for a second round.

And the Empire likely knew that this was going to happen sooner or later. I doubt they expected Skyrim to just lie down and let it's people be taken by the Thalmor or be forced to worship the god of the Empire/the god of humanity, Talos, in private if they had to worship them at all.

It was a bad price to pay, to put it simply. The Empire rejected the terms before, but then accepted them AFTER they got their butts handed to them by surprise. Maybe this war is needed for the Empire to get its rear end into gear to take the fight to the Thalmor sooner rather than later.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And the Empire likely knew that this was going to happen sooner or later. I doubt they expected Skyrim to just lie down and let it's people be taken by the Thalmor or be forced to worship the god of the Empire/the god of humanity, Talos, in private if they had to worship them at all.

People weren't being taken by the Thalmor until Ulfric Stormcloak stirred plops up. Talos isn't the God of the Empire, Akatosh is. Majority of Nords don't actually worship the Nine Divines, they're the religion of the Imperials. Nords preferred their own gods, those who did worship the Nine Divines ignored the treaty. They didn't pay attention to it, all of them had their little shrines.

Talos worship was a major thing in Cyrodiil too. Something Stormcloak supporters in this thread forget, his worship is major in Cyrodiil. His body is buried in Cyrodiil, his chapel was in Cyrodiil.

It was a bad price to pay, to put it simply. The Empire rejected the terms before, but then accepted them AFTER they got their butts handed to them by surprise. Maybe this war is needed for the Empire to get its rear end into gear to take the fight to the Thalmor sooner rather than later.

The Empire rejected the terms because no one was going to accept them over the mere threat of war. It took four years of warfare and thousands dead for the treaty to occur. Keeping the Empire together came at a very high price, many understood the need for peace. No one liked the treaty, but it was needed.

The Stormcloaks are fighting for a good cause but for the wrong reasons. If you speak to their leaders, you can even see they've been manipulated into wrong facts.

They say that Torygg and the 'Jarls that supported him' accepted the White-Gold Concordat and the Emperor's gold, that the Emperor surrendered when the Imperial City nearly fell.

Problem with that is, Istlod accepted the White-Gold Concordat, every Jarl supported him. even Ulfric considered him a true High King, and chests of gold were given to all the Jarls after the war.

The other problem is, the Stormcloaks are forgetting Battle of the Red Ring. The Empire actually signed the peace treaty late in the year after the Battle of the Red Ring, possibly many months after.

 

[Caideus]

Actually the Stormcloaks don't give a flying fluff about any dumbmer or gaymer or whatever,I never heard anyone say anything about a dunmer or argonian,all they hate is a Empire,and few say a few things about the Thalmor too.

Ulfric himself never says anything about the dark elves too,Galmar never even mentions anyone but the Empire and Thalmor.

When you find a stormcloak that says "Death to all dunmer and argonians" point him out so I can go and listen to it myself.Your arguments are invalid.

As far as I am concerned, neither Ulfric or Galmar say anything racist about the dark elves. But not everything that is not said to the player isn't said at all. You're not present during all their conversations.

But okay.. Let's say he never said anything racist about them: then still...
Deeds have more value than words. The fact that he treats the Dunmer like second rank citizens and forces them to live in the Grey Quarters, says so much about his actual opinion. If I discriminate someone without saying 'hey, I discriminate you', that doesn't mean that it is not racism..

Also; you say the Stormcloaks don't give "a flying fluff". Yet they care enough to force them to live in the grey quarters?

If Ulfric really didn't want the Dunmer in his city, they wouldn't be in the city. The fact that they are still there shows that Ulfric isn't a racist as it also proves he still cares about the well-being of his citizens. Now with the slums being in the condition they are in, this is the fault of the Dunmer. They are poor, sure, but are they so poor that they cannot be bothered to fix there own floors? We also know that there is a civil war going, a religious war at that, which has a price. But do you hear about the Dumner complaining about taxes? No. You don't. So it leads me to say that Ulfric and his supporters are paying for everything and not taxing it's citizens. Now that's a Stan up guy.

The Dumner of Windhelm are lazy in my opinion. To eager to have someone fight for them and hand them gold but seriously lacking any backbone to earn it and to put it to use in repairing the city.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

And the Empire likely knew that this was going to happen sooner or later. I doubt they expected Skyrim to just lie down and let it's people be taken by the Thalmor or be forced to worship the god of the Empire/the god of humanity, Talos, in private if they had to worship them at all.

People weren't being taken by the Thalmor until Ulfric Stormcloak stirred pl*** up. Talos isn't the God of the Empire, Akatosh is. Majority of Nords don't actually worship the Nine Divines, they're the religion of the Imperials. Nords preferred their own gods, those who did worship the Nine Divines ignored the treaty. They didn't pay attention to it, all of them had their little shrines.

Talos worship was a major thing in Cyrodiil too. Something Stormcloak supporters in this thread forget, his worship is major in Cyrodiil. His body is buried in Cyrodiil, his chapel was in Cyrodiil.

It was a bad price to pay, to put it simply. The Empire rejected the terms before, but then accepted them AFTER they got their butts handed to them by surprise. Maybe this war is needed for the Empire to get its rear end into gear to take the fight to the Thalmor sooner rather than later.

The Empire rejected the terms because no one was going to accept them over the mere threat of war. It took four years of warfare and thousands dead for the treaty to occur. Keeping the Empire together came at a very high price, many understood the need for peace. No one liked the treaty, but it was needed.

The Stormcloaks are fighting for a good cause but for the wrong reasons. If you speak to their leaders, you can even see they've been manipulated into wrong facts.

They say that Torygg and the 'Jarls that supported him' accepted the White-Gold Concordat and the Emperor's gold, that the Emperor surrendered when the Imperial City nearly fell.

Problem with that is, Istlod accepted the White-Gold Concordat, every Jarl supported him. even Ulfric considered him a true High King, and chests of gold were given to all the Jarls after the war.

The other problem is, the Stormcloaks are forgetting Battle of the Red Ring. The Empire actually signed a peace treaty late in the year after the Battle of the Red Ring, possibly many months after.

And the Imperials also forget the fact that this is partly the Empire's fault for being cowards when the Thalmor marched a massive army into their territory in the first place as well. That is all the Civil War is, people finally having enough of the Empire constantly sticking their hand in the Skyrim cookie jar.

Stormcloaks fight for the cause. Imperials are the only ones who care about any facts that do not fully matter when deciding which cause is right or wrong.

 

[DrunkenMage]

If Ulfric really didn't want the Dunmer in his city, they wouldn't be in the city. The fact that they are still there shows that Ulfric isn't a racist as it also proves he still cares about the well-being of his citizens. Now with the slums being in the condition they are in, this is the fault of the Dunmer. They are poor, sure, but are they so poor that they cannot be bothered to fix there own floors? We also know that there is a civil war going, a religious war at that, which has a price. But do you hear about the Dumner complaining about taxes? No. You don't. So it leads me to say that Ulfric and his supporters are paying for everything and not taxing it's citizens. Now that's a Stan up guy.

Ulfric tolerates them, but won't concern himself with them. He tolerates them because his father and forefathers were kind to them. They treated them equally. That is kind of a silly notion, that the fact they're in the city shows he isn't racist? They're racially segregated. You don't have to be extreme to be racist, when you start rounding up a racial group and putting them in a section by law. Then saying "It isn't racist, you're still technically in the city" Doesn't make sense.

The Dunmer do pay taxes. All citizens pay taxes, except those too poor. The Dunmer all pay taxes. Revyn Sadri has a quest where he recently bought a ring but discovers it was stolen if you turn him in to the woman she says this. "I think the Jarl should hear about this. Maybe double his taxes. No, triple them." Clear sign of paying taxes.

The Dumner of Windhelm are lazy in my opinion. To eager to have someone fight for them and hand them gold but seriously lacking any backbone to earn it and to put it to use in repairing the city.

All resources in the city belong to Ulfric Stormcloak. The Dunmer can't exactly take it and do whatever they want. They also aren't lazy, every single Dunmer in Windhelm work. Find me one Dunmer in Windhelm that doesn't actually do any work? I can find you three Nords.

The Dunmer aren't asking for gold, they're asking for basic needs. They've approached Ulfric but he doesn't even care to come look.

"Well you see where we have to live. This forgotten alley. All the filth from the upper quarters flows downhill, like they say. Good luck getting one of the guards to help with anything. I tried to get Ulfric to even come down here to see the squalor, but the High Lord of His Mightiness couldn't find the time." - Ambarys

Malthyr: "You've seen how we live -- cramped alleys, run-down buildings, few guard patrols. Even the name 'Gray Quarter' is an insult."
Brunwulf: "I'll speak to Ulfric soon, but I make no promises that I can change his mind."

Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter."
Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And the Imperials also forget the fact that this is partly the Empire's fault for being cowards when the Thalmor marched a massive army into their territory in the first place as well. That is all the Civil War is, people finally having enough of the Empire constantly sticking their hand in the Skyrim cookie jar.

Stormcloaks fight for the cause. Imperials are the only ones who care about any facts that do not fully matter when deciding which cause is right or wrong.

The Stormcloaks also forget, that when saying 'The Empire' they're talking about Skyrim too. So Skyrim and High Rock are cowards also?

The Empire were hardly cowards when the Thalmor marched a massive army into their lands. They fought them constantly for four years, two Legions were wiped out, the Eighth Legion sacrificed themselves to allow as many people as possible escape the Imperial City.

Not a single Legion was above half strength. I've said it before if the Empire had 18 Legions, at the end of the war they had only enough manpower to fill 7 or 7.5 Legions. But it is actually unlikely the Empire had the full 18 Legions because the Military weakness was mentioned prior to the war. It is highly likely they only had 10 Legions (The highest Legion mentioned during the Great War) so after the war the Empire had enough soldiers to fill 3 or 3.5 Legions. Either way, 7.5 or 3.5 isn't enough to maintain order or face another possible invasion.

The Empire had no idea what the Thalmor had, the Aldmeri Dominion historically have been known to constantly keep attacking. Such as the border skirmishes during the Second Era.

What cookie jar? The Empire is Skyrim, it is Cyrodiil and it is High Rock.

If anyone is taking from a cookie jar, it is Skyrim. They invaded Hammerfell and High Rock the second Imperial authority dropped, they were attacking House Redoran during the Oblivion Crisis. As if Daedra invasion isn't enough, they had to handle the Nords.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The Civil War is simple "Empire wants Skyrim to follow it to death, Stormcloaks want action NOW!" No other reason, no facts, no lore will change that.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Civil War is simple "Empire wants Skyrim to follow it to death, Stormcloaks want action NOW!" No other reason, no facts, no lore will change that.

That is just your personal opinion. It is actually a wrong opinion. Since the Civil war is due to the Empire saying Skyrim is one of their provinces and must follow the law. The Stormcloaks are fighting because they feel their way of life is at risk.

You just claim no facts and no lore will change that. So we're back to what you want to RP? You're not a very logical fellow, if you wish to deny facts and lore.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

And the Imperials also forget the fact that this is partly the Empire's fault for being cowards when the Thalmor marched a massive army into their territory in the first place as well. That is all the Civil War is, people finally having enough of the Empire constantly sticking their hand in the Skyrim cookie jar.

Stormcloaks fight for the cause. Imperials are the only ones who care about any facts that do not fully matter when deciding which cause is right or wrong.

The Stormcloaks also forget, that when saying 'The Empire' they're talking about Skyrim too. So Skyrim and High Rock are cowards also?

The Empire were hardly cowards when the Thalmor marched a massive army into their lands. They fought them constantly for four years, two Legions were wiped out, the Eighth Legion sacrificed themselves to allow as many people as possible escape the Imperial City.

Not a single Legion was above half strength. I've said it before if the Empire had 18 Legions, at the end of the war they had only enough manpower to fill 7 or 7.5 Legions. But it is actually unlikely the Empire had the full 18 Legions because the Military weakness was mentioned prior to the war. It is highly likely they only had 10 Legions (The highest Legion mentioned during the Great War) so after the war the Empire had enough soldiers to fill 3 or 3.5 Legions. Either way, 7.5 or 3.5 isn't enough to maintain order or face another possible invasion.

The Empire had no idea what the Thalmor had, the Aldmeri Dominion historically have been known to constantly keep attacking. Such as the border skirmishes during the Second Era.

What cookie jar? The Empire is Skyrim, it is Cyrodiil and it is High Rock.

If anyone is taking from a cookie jar, it is Skyrim. They invaded Hammerfell and High Rock the second Imperial authority dropped, they were attacking House Redoran during the Oblivion Crisis. As if Daedra invasion isn't enough, they had to handle the Nords.

The Empire would likely get more for their army if they did not have to deal with plots set up by the Thalmor to blind them to the Thalmor. They would likely be able to have a larger army than we know about if they had no Thalmor causing a ruckus to "make themselves seem useful" when they are really using the Empire's weakness to weaken it further.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The Civil War is simple "Empire wants Skyrim to follow it to death, Stormcloaks want action NOW!" No other reason, no facts, no lore will change that.

That is just your personal opinion. It is actually a wrong opinion. Since the Civil war is due to the Empire saying Skyrim is one of their provinces and must follow the law. The Stormcloaks are fighting because they feel their way of life is at risk.

You just claim no facts and no lore will change that. So we're back to what you want to RP? You're not a very logical fellow, if you wish to deny facts and lore.

And the empires NORMALLY leave things to the provinces int terms of provincial laws and rules.

IF anyone deserves blame for the Civil War, it's the Thalmor, and nobody else.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire would likely get more for their army if they did not have to deal with plots set up by the Thalmor to blind them to the Thalmor. They would likely be able to have a larger army than we know about if they had no Thalmor causing a ruckus to "make themselves seem useful" when they are really using the Empire's weakness to weaken it further.

So you're saying that Ulfric Stormcloak is a weakness the Thalmor are exploiting?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

The Empire would likely get more for their army if they did not have to deal with plots set up by the Thalmor to blind them to the Thalmor. They would likely be able to have a larger army than we know about if they had no Thalmor causing a ruckus to "make themselves seem useful" when they are really using the Empire's weakness to weaken it further.

So you're saying that tensions between the Empire and Ulfric Stormcloak is a weakness the Thalmor are exploiting?

Added the finishing touches to that. Ulfric was a soldier who felt that the Empire failed Skyrim when they agreed to the WGC, no matter the reasons. That was the reason he was so passionate about going independent in the first place, and not vying for personal power. In the end, this civil war is just tensions between the Stormcloaks, led by Ulfric, and the Empire. The Thalmor are considering him an asset because he is keeping the Empire from fully preparing for war, which is what they need to do right now.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And the empires NORMALLY leave things to the provinces int terms of provincial laws and rules.

No. Provinces deal with their own laws, but there are laws that extend to all provinces of the Empire. Certain things like how Necromancy is illegal in one province, isn't illegal in Skyrim or Cyrodiil.

Provinces handle their own justice, but there are many laws that are Empire wide, such as these. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics

It stares at you all the time on every single coin. “The Empire Is Law. The Law Is Sacred”

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

And the empires NORMALLY leave things to the provinces int terms of provincial laws and rules.

No. Provinces deal with their own laws, but there are laws that extend to all provinces of the Empire. Certain things like how Necromancy is illegal in one province, isn't illegal in Skyrim or Cyrodiil.

Provinces handle their own justice, but there are many laws that are Empire wide, such as these. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legal_Basics

It stares at you all the time on every single coin. “The Empire Is Law. The Law Is Sacred”

And not all provinces were part of the Empire until Talos came into the picture. I would say that Talos deserves to be revered as a hero, at least, and that no law should have to deal with a person's religious beliefs.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Added the finishing touches to that. Ulfric was a soldier who felt that the Empire failed Skyrim when they agreed to the WGC, no matter the reasons. That was the reason he was so passionate about going independent in the first place, and not vying for personal power. In the end, this civil war is just tensions between the Stormcloaks, led by Ulfric, and the Empire. The Thalmor are considering him an asset because he is keeping the Empire from fully preparing for war, which is what they need to do right now.

Don't edit my quotes if you can't get it correct.

It is tensions between the Thalmor and Empire, that is being exploited.

The Empire can't send a Legion to Skyrim, Ulfric is the diversion. Ulfric isn't going against the Empire, he isn't that stupid. It is why he won't attack Solitude during the wedding or the Emperor's visit. There aren't tensions between Ulfric and the Empire, they're between the Thalmor and Empire. Ulfric is more of a thorn in the side that is distracting the Empire from it's ultimate aim.

 

[DrunkenMage]

And not all provinces were part of the Empire until Talos came into the picture. I would say that Talos deserves to be revered as a hero, at least, and that no law should have to deal with a person's religious beliefs.

Well Morrowind wasn't until Talos came. But under the Reman Dynasty every single province was part of the Empire.

Talos is revered as a hero still. It is a temporary law, and no one is happy about it. The Empire still worships Talos. But before we start going throwing the 'Imperials are bad cause they banned their own religion' Nords ban the people of the Reach from worshiping their gods. Many Stormcloaks like to dismiss that little knowledge.

You know what the Nords reaction to the Divines of the Empire were at one point? They sacked all the temples and burnt the priests if I remember my lore correctly.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Added the finishing touches to that. Ulfric was a soldier who felt that the Empire failed Skyrim when they agreed to the WGC, no matter the reasons. That was the reason he was so passionate about going independent in the first place, and not vying for personal power. In the end, this civil war is just tensions between the Stormcloaks, led by Ulfric, and the Empire. The Thalmor are considering him an asset because he is keeping the Empire from fully preparing for war, which is what they need to do right now.

Don't edit my quotes if you can't get it correct.

It is tensions between the Stormcloaks and Empire, that is being exploited.

The Empire can't send a Legion to Skyrim, Ulfric is the diversion. Ulfric isn't going against the Empire, he isn't that stupid. It is why he won't attack Solitude during the wedding or the Emperor's visit. There aren't tensions between Ulfric and the Empire, they're between the Thalmor and Empire. Ulfric is more of a thorn in the side that is distracting the Empire from it's ultimate aim.

Actually, the Stormcloaks are jsut the Nords saying "enough is enough" And the Thalmor are exploiting that to weaken the Empire by keeping the Civil War going for as long as the THALMOR NEED IT TO.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Actually, the Stormcloaks are jsut the Nords saying "enough is enough" And the Thalmor are exploiting that to weaken the Empire by keeping the Civil War going for as long as the THALMOR NEED IT TO.

Stormcloaks are certain Nords. Since it is a Civil War, Nord vs Nord. Hold vs Hold, Jarl vs Jarl. The Thalmor are exploiting the Nords to distract the Empire. Skyrim's internal fighting have been going on for a few years, the death of Torygg several months prior to the start of the game is what caught the Empire's attention. Stormcloaks have been active and getting into skirmishes for years, so it was between the Holds for sometime.

The Legion stepped in to restore order after the death of Torygg.