Ulfrick working for the Thalmor!

[DrunkenMage]

If you were actually thought to be a rebel, then you being there would raise suspicion. Maybe you're a spy? Things like that. Or he would ask why you were switching sides.

Which shows me that in Helgen, Tullius knew you probably weren't a rebel. He could've easily thrown you in prison instead of allowing you to be executed.

Tullius actually didn't really notice you at first, if you watch him during Helgan he only spots you when you're being called to the chopping block. He's fixed on Ulfric.

 

[Pretty Vampires]

Tullius actually didn't really notice you at first, if you watch him during Helgan he only spots you when you're being called to the chopping block. He's fixed on Ulfric.

Then how come when you first meet him, he says "I'm sure it was all just a misunderstanding"? If he didn't notice you until you were at the chopping block, then he wouldn't have known you were being executed despite not being on the list. If that were so, then when you first meet, he wouldn't have said "it was a misunderstanding".

 

[Docta Corvina]

Then how come when you first meet him, he says "I'm sure it was all just a misunderstanding"? If he didn't notice you until you were at the chopping block, then he wouldn't have known you were being executed despite not being on the list. If that were so, then when you first meet, he wouldn't have said "it was a misunderstanding".

What Drunken has said is the case, Tullius doesn't look up to notice you until you've essentially been "cleared" and vouched for execution by the captain. To his knowledge in that moment, you are supposed to be going to the block at that point. He looks at you as you're lead over. Prior to that, he's shown to be preoccupied with Ulfric, the "most wanted" man in the region.

So I believe Tullius when he says it was probably "a misunderstanding". Of course, he may be being sarcastic as well, still suspicious of you but willing to overlook it. If I recall correctly, Ulfric does the same (perhaps depending on dialogue option), saying that as long as your past crimes stay in the past, then, welcome aboard.

 

[Pretty Vampires]

What Drunken has said is the case, Tullius doesn't look up to notice you until you've essentially been "cleared" and vouched for execution by the captain. To his knowledge in that moment, you are supposed to be going to the block at that point. He looks at you as you're lead over. Prior to that, he's shown to be preoccupied with Ulfric, the "most wanted" man in the region.

So I believe Tullius when he says it was probably "a misunderstanding". Of course, he may be being sarcastic as well, still suspicious of you but willing to overlook it. If I recall correctly, Ulfric does the same (perhaps depending on dialogue option), saying that as long as your past crimes stay in the past, then, welcome aboard.

If he didn't overhear Hadvar and the captain speaking, shouldn't his conclusion be that you're a Stormcloak soldier? When you meet him, why wouldn't he suspect that you're just a spy, or at the very least be suspicious of you?

 

[Docta Corvina]

If he didn't overhear Hadvar and the captain speaking, shouldn't his conclusion be that you're a Stormcloak soldier? When you meet him, why wouldn't he suspect that you're just a spy, or at the very least be suspicious of you?

I think he may well be suspicious of you. He struck me as somewhat aloof and guarded when you first show up in Castle Dour. And again, I think it's fair to read some sarcasm in his comments. Rikke saying she has "a good feeling" about you and giving you a "test" is required before you're admitted to the Legion. So who knows. Maybe he can intellectually appreciate shifting loyalties or other complexities that can make for fortuitous battling.

Really, I think part of it is just game mechanics. Can't you join either side regardless of who you follow out of Helgen? It may not make as much sense, but I believe it's possible to do. Just like I've heard people say that one can pull a switcheroo with the Jagged Crown (I've never done it).

 

[Pretty Vampires]

I think he may well be suspicious of you. He struck me as somewhat aloof and guarded when you first show up in Castle Dour. And again, I think it's fair to read some sarcasm in his comments. Rikke saying she has "a good feeling" about you and giving you a "test" is required before you're admitted to the Legion. So who knows. Maybe he can intellectually appreciate shifting loyalties or other complexities that can make for fortuitous battling.

Really, I think part of it is just game mechanics. Can't you join either side regardless of who you follow out of Helgen? It may not make as much sense, but I believe it's possible to do. Just like I've heard people say that one can pull a switcheroo with the Jagged Crown (I've never done it).

I suspect it's game mechanics more than anything, but Skyrim has so many situations similar to this one, I usually try to fill the holes in. Otherwise, many things in the game won't make sense.

 

[Docta Corvina]

I suspect it's game mechanics more than anything, but Skyrim has so many situations similar to this one, I usually try to fill the holes in. Otherwise, many things in the game won't make sense.

I hear you on that, man. Completely. It can get maddening.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Skyrim accepted the terms of the treaty, people blame Titus Mede II for the White-Gold Concordat but he can't make the treaty by himself, the rest of the Empire had to accept the treaty, Titus Mede II is probably one of over a hundred signatures on that treaty, the exact terms of the treaty Titus Mede II had NO control over, the only power the Emperor has is the power of Veto. Now Skyrim accepted these terms, they had the chance to become independent but they didn't take it? Why not? Why complain about something 26 years after it happened? Many of the population have grown up with the treaty in place, nearly thirty years has passed. It isn't something that happened last week or the other day, nearly thirty years have passed. Did you know High King Torygg greatly respected Ulfric for what he said during Torygg's moot about an independent Skyrim, he wanted to hear more and would of been Ulfric's greatest ally, Ulfric returned to Solitude and the Court assumed he was going to ask Torygg to declare independence, everything could of been done peacefully. Hammerfell left the Empire because it didn't agree with the treaty, they didn't battle the Empire. So the Empire is hardly the tyrants, Skyrim had the option to leave 26 years ago, and then had the chance to do it peacefully through Torygg. Ulfric wants to be High King, why else would he kill a man who could be his ally, why would he wait until a new King sat on the throne when it was Torygg's father who accepted the treaty not Torygg. That is because Torygg's father was well respected and Torygg was new, but Torygg made the mistake of respecting Ulfric and thinking Ulfric cared for Skyrim's future not the throne of Skyrim.

Let Cyrodiil and it's Empire do as it pleases? But the war isn't Imperial Cyrodiil vs Skyrim. Skyrim is fighting a Civil war between Nords, there are many Nord legionnaires, Skyrim is torn in half between East and West, you're forgetting that the other half of Skyrim is against Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. The Empire is made up of all races, not just Imperials. There was even a Dark Elf Empress in the Third Era.

"This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"

Incorrect, Skyrim never accepted the terms of the treaty wholeheartedly. Remember Jarl Barlgruf when he is arguing with his advisors."Was I given the chance to object to the terms of the treaty? No, the Jarls weren't asked. We were told and we had to like it". To which Aveneci replies "the chests of gold didn't hurt". Why on earth would the Imperials feel the need to offer gold to already rich Jarls? To soften the blow of being told your way of life has been ripped out from under your feet. As far as the Nords simply peacefully renouncing the Empire, well you're incorrect there too. Alvor of Riverwood, whom you've quoted before even says "The Empire had to crack down, when Ulfric started agitating about it". There would never have been a civil war to begin with if the Empire had just accepted that the Nords wanted to worship Talos. Did this happen though, no. Instead they sent troops north into Skyrim and aided their own enemy in the Thalmor by allowing them to kidnap and murder any Nord or citizen they chose to unchecked. To use General Tullius's own words "Culling this little rebellion". How disrespectful. He like Avenecci when he angers Hrongar in Whiterun is out of touch with Skyrim and all it's people. The Empire knows that if Skyrim pulls out, their northern border is no longer protected from an attack and thus, unlike what you claim, would never allow that to happen. Which brings us back to the original view that sparked this debate. The Empire is done in Skyrim, one way or another.

 

[Dagmar]

Incorrect, Skyrim never accepted the terms of the treaty wholeheartedly. Remember Jarl Barlgruf when he is arguing with his advisors."Was I given the chance to object to the terms of the treaty? No, the Jarls weren't asked. We were told and we had to like it".

Last time I checked, Balgruuf wasn't the High King of Skyrim. As a province Skyrim is represented in matters of state by the High King and any members that might represent its interests on the Elder Council, not the Jarls.

Why on earth would the Imperials feel the need to offer gold to already rich Jarls?

It's called politics. This kind of quid pro quo practice has been going on in the Empire for centuries. Consolidation and unity wasn't maintained by brute force. It's rather one dimensional to characterize the gold subsidies for each Jarl as a bribe as Ulfric does. A good Jarl would use some portion of that gold if not all of it to improve his or her Hold. Ulfric receives none, which would help explain the sorry condition of Windhelm. It's also another example of something Skyrim would lose on top of the other resource subsidies it receives from the Empire if the Stormcloaks take control of the province.

...As far as the Nords simply peacefully renouncing the Empire, well you're incorrect there too. Alvor of Riverwood, whom you've quoted before even says "The Empire had to crack down, when Ulfric started agitating about it". There would never have been a civil war to begin with if the Empire had just accepted that the Nords wanted to worship Talos. Did this happen though, no. Instead they sent troops north into Skyrim and aided their own enemy in the Thalmor by allowing them to kidnap and murder any Nord or citizen they chose to unchecked.

The Empire didn't send troops into Skyrim. As is repeated throughout the game by NPCs and consistent with hundreds of years of lore, the Imperial Legion has always been in Skyrim and the all other provinces of the Empire to maintain order. That aside, game lore informs those actually inclined to listen that the Imperial Legion's enforcement of the ban was lackadaisical and essentially non-existent when it came to inconspicuous worship of Talos. It's Ulfric's open defiance of the ban in Markarth and subsequent further open defiance in Eastmarch that results in heightened levels of enforcement by the Thalmor Justiciars. That's what Alvor is referring to in his statement which appears to have completely eluded you. None of that is relevant to whether peaceful secession from the Empire was a possibility, which is something we'll never know since Ulfric's actions eliminated that possibility.

...The Empire knows that if Skyrim pulls out, their northern border is no longer protected from an attack and thus, unlike what you claim, would never allow that to happen. Which brings us back to the original view that sparked this debate. The Empire is done in Skyrim, one way or another.

More nonsense. If there's a peaceful separation between the Empire and Skyrim just who exactly does the Empire need protection from on its northern border?

 

[High King of Skyrim]

Last time I checked, Balgruuf wasn't the High King of Skyrim. As a province Skyrim is represented in matters of state by the High King and any members that might represent its interests on the Elder Council, not the Jarls.
It's called politics. This kind of quid pro quo practice has been going on in the Empire for centuries. Consolidation and unity wasn't maintained by brute force. It's rather one dimensional to characterize the gold subsidies for each Jarl as a bribe as Ulfric does. A good Jarl would use some portion of that gold if not all of it to improve his or her Hold. Ulfric receives none, which would help explain the sorry condition of Windhelm. It's also another example of something Skyrim would lose on top of the other resource subsidies it receives from the Empire if the Stormcloaks take control of the province.

The Empire didn't send troops into Skyrim. As is repeated throughout the game by NPCs and consistent with hundreds of years of lore, the Imperial Legion has always been in Skyrim and the all other provinces of the Empire to maintain order. That aside, game lore informs those actually inclined to listen that the Imperial Legion's enforcement of the ban was lackadaisical and essentially non-existent when it came to inconspicuous worship of Talos. It's Ulfric's open defiance of the ban in Markarth and subsequent further open defiance in Eastmarch that results in heightened levels of enforcement by the Thalmor Justiciars. That's what Alvor is referring to in his statement which appears to have completely eluded you. None of that is relevant to whether peaceful secession from the Empire was a possibility, which is something we'll never know since Ulfric's actions eliminated that possibility.
More nonsense. If there's a peaceful separation between the Empire and Skyrim just who exactly does the Empire need protection from on its northern border?

At no time did I suggest Barlgruf was high king. He simply said that the Jarls were not asked but rather ordered to accept the treaty. Jarls meaning plural. Meaning that there may have been eight other Jarls that didn't want to accept the treaty. We'll never know as it went ahead without a proper vote. That fact, I believe to be unfair and unjust. I merely pointed out that Barlgruf eludes to this fact in a moment of frustration giving credence to what I was saying. I'm also aware of what politics is, but your answer seems like a cop-out to me personally and politics is not something i'm going to get into. One dimensional as it may seem, a bribe is a bribe no matter what spin you decide to put on it. Windhelm in sorry condition? It has the best market quarter in Skyrim by far. It has an impressive dock and shipping port, beautiful architecture, and a diverse mix of culture. Not to mention The Palace Of The Kings, arguably the most impressive. Glad you mentioned the Markarth Incident. Just another example of Imperial injustice in Skyrim. Lying to Ulfric to get what it wanted then betraying him and his brave followers when the job was done. Polotics hey?...Please. Little wonder Ulfric has lost faith with the Empire he once fought so fiercely for. Nonsense is a little aggressive don't you think? I think I raised a reasonable point. If Skyrim is no longer part of the Empire then what is to stop Skyrim from allowing the enemies of the Empire, whoever that might be, safe passage through in order to launch an invasion of Cyrodil's northern border. All that would then stand between an invading army and the Imperial City itself would be Bruma. A fact not lost on any smart Imperial general. I'm sure they wouldn't consider that nonsense. Been a pleasure Dagmar

 

[DrunkenMage]

At no time did I suggest Barlgruf was high king. He simply said that the Jarls were not asked but rather ordered to accept the treaty. Jarls meaning plural. Meaning that there may have been eight other Jarls that didn't want to accept the treaty. We'll never know as it went ahead without a proper vote. That fact, I believe to be unfair and unjust. I merely pointed out that Barlgruf eludes to this fact in a moment of frustration giving credence to what I was saying. I'm also aware of what politics is, but your answer seems like a cop-out to me personally and politics is not something i'm going to get into. One dimensional as it may seem, a bribe is a bribe no matter what spin you decide to put on it. Windhelm in sorry condition? It has the best market quarter in Skyrim by far. It has an impressive dock and shipping port, beautiful architecture, and a diverse mix of culture. Not to mention The Palace Of The Kings, arguably the most impressive. Glad you mentioned the Markarth Incident. Just another example of Imperial injustice in Skyrim. Lying to Ulfric to get what it wanted then betraying him and his brave followers when the job was done. Polotics hey?...Please. Little wonder Ulfric has lost faith with the Empire he once fought so fiercely for. Nonsense is a little aggressive don't you think? I think I raised a reasonable point. If Skyrim is no longer part of the Empire then what is to stop Skyrim from allowing the enemies of the Empire, whoever that might be, safe passage through in order to launch an invasion of Cyrodil's northern border. All that would then stand between an invading army and the Imperial City itself would be Bruma. A fact not lost on any smart Imperial general. I'm sure they wouldn't consider that nonsense. Been a pleasure Dagmar

Actually that is how Skyrim politics are, if you see them unfair and unjust then you're against Nordic tradition. The Jarls are all largely independent and rule their holds, they do however swear fealty to Skyrim's High King, the Pact of Chieftains is a Skyrim tradition which actually Ulfric cuts out by having Galmar control the Jarls to follow orders Ulfric gives (Those are the actions of a Tyrant)

Windhelm is in sorry condition, it's actually bankrupt. Their stockpiles are completely empty, you would know this if you did the Legion quest line and spoke to the new Jarl, Free-Winter. Windhelm is falling apart the walls are barely standing and are in disrepair, Windhelm is as poor as Winterhold just it still has walls. Windhelm's diverse mix of culture? The Argonians were banished from the walls and the Snow Quarter was renamed the Grey Quarter as an insult when Ulfric took over. Jarls before Ulfric cared about other races, Ulfric does not. 'There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.' Also that when Non-Nords are attacked in his Hold he doesn't lift a finger, but when Nords are attacked he is the first to sound the horn. The Stormcloak rebellion is being aided by the Thalmor, take away that Thalmor aid and the rebellion would of ended long ago, Windhelm is bankrupt and has no stockpiles of anything left.

The Empire never struck a deal with Ulfric during the Markarth incident, the Forsworn Kingdom were actually making steps to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom, the Empire however was busy since it was dealing with the aftermath of the Great War, none of the Legions had even returned to Skyrim. Ulfric was promised free worship by a few Nords including Igmund, once the Thalmor got wind, they ordered his arrest or it was back to war, no one was willing to sacrifice the newly formed treaty.

It is nonsense, no enemies of the Empire would pass through Skyrim unless it was the Nords themselves, which if they left the Empire peacefully and maintained relations then there would be nothing to worry about. I doubt the Nords are going to let the Thalmor pass through their lands towards Cyrodiil. Though the Nords would never mess with Cyrodiil now, Ulfric himself is afraid of pissing off Cyrodiil, because all of the highly trained legions are in Cyrodiil, not that Auxiliary garrison that is within Skyrim.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

Messing with the veteran legions isn't even something Ulfric is dumb enough to do.

 

[Psiberzerker]

He's not a Thalmor Agent so much as unwittingly playing into their plans. He's being manipulated, by his hatred to weaken the region so they can destabilize the region, empire, and pretty much the rest of Tamriel. It's also a Xanatos Gambit in that it doesn't matter who wins the Civil War, the Thalmor stand to gain from it. Oh, and did you notice Elenwen with her entourage in Helgen when you rolled in on the Cart?

 

[High King of Skyrim]

We

Actually that is how Skyrim politics are, if you see them unfair and unjust then you're against Nordic tradition. The Jarls are all largely independent and rule their holds, they do however swear fealty to Skyrim's High King, the Pact of Chieftains is a Skyrim tradition which actually Ulfric cuts out by having Galmar control the Jarls to follow orders Ulfric gives (Those are the actions of a Tyrant)

Windhelm is in sorry condition, it's actually bankrupt. Their stockpiles are completely empty, you would know this if you did the Legion quest line and spoke to the new Jarl, Free-Winter. Windhelm is falling apart the walls are barely standing and are in disrepair, Windhelm is as poor as Winterhold just it still has walls. Windhelm's diverse mix of culture? The Argonians were banished from the walls and the Snow Quarter was renamed the Grey Quarter as an insult when Ulfric took over. Jarls before Ulfric cared about other races, Ulfric does not. 'There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were.' Also that when Non-Nords are attacked in his Hold he doesn't lift a finger, but when Nords are attacked he is the first to sound the horn. The Stormcloak rebellion is being aided by the Thalmor, take away that Thalmor aid and the rebellion would of ended long ago, Windhelm is bankrupt and has no stockpiles of anything left.

The Empire never struck a deal with Ulfric during the Markarth incident, the Forsworn Kingdom were actually making steps to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom, the Empire however was busy since it was dealing with the aftermath of the Great War, none of the Legions had even returned to Skyrim. Ulfric was promised free worship by a few Nords including Igmund, once the Thalmor got wind, they ordered his arrest or it was back to war, no one was willing to sacrifice the newly formed treaty.

It is nonsense, no enemies of the Empire would pass through Skyrim unless it was the Nords themselves, which if they left the Empire peacefully and maintained relations then there would be nothing to worry about. I doubt the Nords are going to let the Thalmor pass through their lands towards Cyrodiil. Though the Nords would never mess with Cyrodiil now, Ulfric himself is afraid of pissing off Cyrodiil, because all of the highly trained legions are in Cyrodiil, not that Auxiliary garrison that is within Skyrim.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

Messing with the veteran legions isn't even something Ulfric is dumb enough to do.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one drunken mage! However it has been fun debating with you. Enjoy

 

[High King of Skyrim]

He's not a Thalmor Agent so much as unwittingly playing into their plans. He's being manipulated, by his hatred to weaken the region so they can destabilize the region, empire, and pretty much the rest of Tamriel. It's also a Xanatos Gambit in that it doesn't matter who wins the Civil War, the Thalmor stand to gain from it. Oh, and did you notice Elenwen with her entourage in Helgen when you rolled in on the Cart?

Did indeed. Although not at first. That's what makes this game so good in my opinion. You can play for years and still discover new things from time to time

 

[Epic Keith]

Did indeed. Although not at first. That's what makes this game so good in my opinion. You can play for years and still discover new things from time to time

And after the Dragon Attack, you may bump into her if you go to Helgen

 

[DrunkenMage]

Well the Thalmor are there trying to find a way to save Ulfric from the chopping block.

 

[Epic Keith]

Well the Thalmor are there trying to find a way to save Ulfric from the chopping block.

Obviously, if they wanted to gain from the rebellion they needed someone to rebel.

I think all that torturing made Ulfric a little crazy and extreme

 

[Dagmar]

...We'll never know as it went ahead without a proper vote....

There is no such thing as a "proper vote". If you knew anything about the history of Skyrim you would know why. The First Empire of the Nords fell apart because the Jarls were allowed a "proper vote" so through the Pact of Chieftains they collectively decided that was never going to happen again, and the Moot was stripped of all of its powers but one, to select a new High King when there is no lineal heir. You may think it's unfair but the Nords of Skyrim don't agree with you.

...Barlgruf eludes to this fact in a moment of frustration giving credence to what I was saying...

It gives absolutely no credence to what you claimed.

Skyrim accepted the terms of the treaty...

Incorrect, Skyrim never accepted the terms of the treaty...

In point of fact your claim is simply false on its face. Adding a meaninglessly subjective term like "wholeheartedly" does nothing to change that fact if for no other reason than DrunkenMage never attached any subjective adjective to the fact that Skyrim accepted the terms of the treaty. He didn't need to do so because the fact speaks for itself.

...I'm also aware of what politics is, but your answer seems like a cop-out to me personally and politics is not something i'm going to get into...

It's a fact. If you prefer to characterize facts as a cop-out and not address them because they don't favor your speculations that's your prerogative but it only further undermines your already weak propositions.

...One dimensional as it may seem, a bribe is a bribe no matter what spin you decide to put on it...

It doesn't seem one dimensional. It is one dimensional. Characterizing it as a bribe is spin. Factually all it is is money given to each Jarl to use in a manner he or she deems fit. The United States federal government does this all the time when it sends more in federal funds than it receives in tax revenues from some states (while doing the reverse for others).

...Windhelm in sorry condition?...

There is broken masonry in a state of disrepair all over the city. It's observable here and all over the city. Your opinions about the marketplace, the docks etc. are merely that and do nothing to refute the fact that the city is falling apart in places.

...Glad you mentioned the Markarth Incident. Just another example of Imperial injustice in Skyrim. Lying to Ulfric to get what it wanted then betraying him and his brave followers when the job was done. Polotics hey?...

This statement is a falsehood as DrunkenMage has already pointed out. It also does absolutely nothing to refute the fact that Ulfric's actions are the cause of the extremely heightened level of enforcement of the ban on worshiping Talos by the Thalmor Justiciars.

...Nonsense is a little aggressive don't you think? I think I raised a reasonable point...

It's not a reasonable point. It is complete nonsense to anyone who has seen a map of Tamriel and also has more than a nominal amount of common sense. There isn't a single province in Tamriel where a more direct path to the Empire wouldn't make exponentially more sense (this has already been discussed numerous times in analyzing how well an independent Skyrim itself would be protected against a naval invasion from the Aldmeri Dominion), and Ulfric would have to be a gibbering mouth drooling moron to allow any invasion sized force from another province to move through Skyrim because of the inherent threat that would represent to Skyrim itself.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one drunken mage!

You're entitled to your own opinion, but it's completely unsupported and largely contradicted by the facts regardless of whether you choose to agree or disagree as to their existence.

 

[Delusional]

Wow.

 

[Epic Keith]

Wow.

Yes. WOW! INDULGE THE GLORY OF THE GREAT DAGMAR!

One of the problems in being a Stormcloak is that Dagmar renders your argument invalid. Keep that in mind