Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

What I love is how Tiber Septim is said to have been a Breton, and Talos the merging of three souls. A Breton, Imperial and Atmoran/Nord. I really should look further into that.

His real name was Hjaalti Early-Beard. pretty sure he wasn't a Breton. But that is interesting, please elaborate.

 

[Ivory]

His real name was Hjaalti Early-Beard. pretty sure he wasn't a Breton. But that is interesting, please elaborate.

Rumor has it, Tiber septim was born in High Rock and then moved to skyrim as a child. So it's possible his father was a Nord. When someone asked Kirk, he says "Both are right". Another says there were three men who took the name Tiber Septim to be in multiple places.

 

[Raijin]

He's not doing anything wrong? So planning to kidnap citizens and put them to torture is normal and being loyal to Windhelm? Now you're dancing on a thin edge in becoming like the Thalmor.

What legitimate concern do they have? Imperial Legion armor being in their tavern? Firstly it isn't Officer armor, but standard Legionnaire gear. Secondly, Imperial armor could mean many things... The last being Imperial spies.

The Empire mass produces those armor pieces. I sometimes find them in bandit camps, are the Bandits working for us too? Hell I've even found them on Giants, guess they're part of our new primitive task force.

Torturer: "You fellows happened along just in time. These boys seemed a bit upset at how I've been entertaining their comrades."
Hadvar: "Don't you even know what's going on? A dragon is attacking Helgen!"
Torturer: "A dragon? Please. Don't make up nonsense. Although, come to think of it, I did hear some odd noises coming from over there."
Hadvar: "Come with us. We need to get out of here."
Torturer: "You have no authority over me, boy."
Hadvar: "Didn't you hear me? I said the keep is under attack!"
Assistant: "Forget the old man. I'll come with you."

At this point, Hadvar will notice a dead mage locked in a cell and say:
Hadvar: "Wait a second. Looks like there's something in this cage."
Torturer: "Don't bother with that. Lost the key ages ago. Poor fellow screamed for weeks."
Hadvar: "See if you can get it open with some picks. We'll need everything we can get."
Torturer: "Sure, take all my things. Please."

So Drunkenmage, Let me get this straight, and please, Enough with the double standards bullcrap... When an Imperial solider starts kidnapping people, locking them up in cages and purposely loses the key, and then gets a kick out of seeing them suffer for weeks until they finally die... That kind of behavior is perfectly OK but when a couple of nobodies from Windhelm threatens to interrogate a potential Imperial spy, it becomes an issue and the Stormcloaks is considered a tyrant that needs to be stop by the ole mighty Imperial Legion.

What reason did the Imperials had for torturing this man to death in such violent way that he had to scream for weeks? And why are their skeletons inside cages? Do the Imperials love the smell of decomposition?

What concern do they have? Someone or a group of people are spying on the Stormcloaks that resulted in the capture of the leader. Someone tip off the Imperials at the exact location that Ulfric would be at a certain time. It's safe to say that it was most likely someone from Windhelm.

Put two and two together and seeing the Imperial legion gear in the Dunmers tavern is substantial and crucial incriminating evidence that could even warrant a potential execution.

Do you not see a difference those two situations. Windhelm had three bodies, actual evidence in front of them, bit of basic detective work.

Falk had a second hand report of lights from a cave, no evidence presented to them. Villagers are known to be very superstitious, especially in Skyrim...

And when he did find out about Potema he was very concerned.

I do but you obviously do not... well not the severity that it can cause for the entire country of Skyrim. The cave has a very bad history.

I will repeat the quotes again since you seem to be missing the point. I will make it easier for you to comprehend by bolding up the essential elements that are crucial.

“You mean the Dragon Bridge issue? I'll be honest with you, I was planning to let that go. Varnius is a bit jumpy at the best of times.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00026c4a

“There have been reports of weird happenings near Wolfskull Cave. Travelers disappearing, odd lights. I suspect wild animals or perhaps bandits. I don't think it's worth our time with the war going on, but if you want to clear out the cave, I'll make sure you're repaid for your work.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00026c49

“The cave has a bad history. Long ago, Potema the Wolf Queen used it for necromantic rituals. That's where it got the name. That was over 500 years ago. Nothing much down there now - but everyone's always convinced the cave is haunted.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0002c189

“Any resident of Solitude can tell you, she was the deadliest person ever to come out of Skyrim. Queen of Solitude, granddaughter of Emperor Uriel Septim II, five hundred years ago. Her fight for succession nearly tore the empire apart. After twenty years of fighting, she had raised armies of the dead, led by vampire generals. If she returns to power, nobody could stop her.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000284ef

So yeah. According to Falk their were evidence indicating that suspicious activity was going on in and near Wolfskull cave. People were disappearing and their were odd lights, clearly enough to warrant an investigation. He just dismiss it off by blaming wild animals. He clearly didn't want to do any investigation. It's all written there in bold red.

So yeah lets blame the Steward in Windhelm for not doing anything about the butcher murders while something is terribly brewing inside wolfsskull cave near Solitude.

You're saying Igmund is corrupt because he has powerful people like the Silver-Bloods in his city. Free-Winter is powerful in Windhelm, there are powerful people in every city.

I'm sorry, where does it say the mine is supposed to be owned by the city? The Silver-Bloods own the Treasury House, they're the god damn bank Raijin...

I still don't know what where you're going at here so I'm just going to end this particular debate. Igmund is #1 corrupted Jarl in Skyrim and the proof is there. Just open those eyes and ears and let the truth sink in.

Do you understand what Summary Execution means? Raijin, there is no court of law for this crime. Let Ulfric speak, summon witnesses? For the love of god man, what the hell for?

Ulfric is being executed for High Treason. That means for killing High King Torygg. Is Ulfric denying he killed Torygg? Are there witnesses who'll say it was someone else?

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - High Treason, Imperial Law.

Do you see a "Except for duels" in that law?

High treason for killing King Torygg huh? Torygg verbally accepted the terms by invoking the Nordic traditions, and therefor in the laws of Skyrim the duel was in legal bounds. The Imperials call it high treason because Ulfric cut off the last string of authority that the Empire has on Skyrim.

What minor offenders? Are you talking about Helgen? That was a misunderstanding, and it was a mistake which the Legion admits. These things happen in war time, both the Empire and Stormcloaks kill innocents by accident. That is established.

Since when is it an executable offense to steal a horse? Misunderstanding and a mistake? Yeah try to explain that one to his family.

Imperial law on stealing.

Any act of stealing, taking, or, without explicit written or verbal permission (or what a reasonable person would infer as implied permission) an item or items from a person, group of persons, or entity a reasonable person might assume to be sentient's place of residence, business, person, or other location a reasonable person would assume is secured from looting. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.

These are the usual, day-to-day definitions used by legal experts (like myself), but both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation. In the Imperial City, legal counsel is available by persons like myself, but the provinces have no such system in place. Perhaps that will change in time. We can all hope so.

 

[Jeremius]

Do you understand what Summary Execution means? Raijin, there is no court of law for this crime. Let Ulfric speak, summon witnesses? For the love of god man, what the hell for?

Ulfric is being executed for High Treason. That means for killing High King Torygg. Is Ulfric denying he killed Torygg? Are there witnesses who'll say it was someone else?

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - High Treason, Imperial Law.

Do you see a "Except for duels" in that law?

High treason for killing King Torygg huh? Torygg verbally accepted the terms by invoking the Nordic traditions, and therefor in the laws of Skyrim the duel was in legal bounds. The Imperials call it high treason because Ulfric cut off the last string of authority that the Empire has on Skyrim.

What Skyrim's Laws are has no bearing on the fact that he broke IMPERIAL LAW, as in the the law of the Empire.

IF Skyrim was truly independent at the time, then you would have a point. But since Torygg was the representative of the Empire at the time he was killed, Ulfric broke IMPERIAL law killing him, no matter the circumstances.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

His real name was Hjaalti Early-Beard. pretty sure he wasn't a Breton. But that is interesting, please elaborate.

Rumor has it, Tiber septim was born in High Rock and then moved to skyrim as a child. So it's possible his father was a Nord. When someone asked Kirk, he says "Both are right". Another says there were three men who took the name Tiber Septim to be in multiple places.

hmmm, Interesting. Its strange that not much is known about his cultural background at all. You'd think that a great Emperor would have at least a few books written about what he was racially. Odd.

 

[Tyer032392]

Well, Bethesda might never of given it any thought, or they could be thinking of making an entirely new series games around Tiber Septim and his ascension to both the throne of Tamriel, and godhood.

 

[LegateFasendil]

The Empire needs a charismatic leader like Ulfric. Ulfric took to the cries of many and rallied them to a cause. True Nord or not, he is capable of calling many to arms after feeling their pain.

Charisma doesn't make a ruler. The Empire needs another Titus Mede, now he was an Emperor.

What he means is the need a man of the people, like Ulfric. Someone who's able to round up support through his anger and words. Really the Empire should hire him for recruitment, as long as they pledge to leave Skyrim.

Errmmm No. Man of the people... man of... the people. Hmmm... Ulfric is not a man of the people, he only represents his people. Stormcloaks is a charismatic cause... Ulfric doesn't want to represent all of the people. He stopped the Moot from meeting and killed the High King who represented the people.

Ulfric has actually done more to work AGAINST the people of Skyrim, or people of Skyrim in general. He's not for the people he's for himself and his cause. If Ulfric was for the people than the people's best interests would have been given first priority.

Ok someone like Jarl B is a man of the people. He provides his hold with freedom to worship Talos and freedom of speech and puts HIS people first. Ulfric puts his cause FIRST it's just that some of his people benefit from it.

Jarl B was ready to DEFEND his people from Ulfric during the Battle for Whiterun while Ulfric sent his people to DIE for his cause.

You endow Ulfric with magical thinking when in reality there's nothing magical about him. He's just another so called 'Freedom Fighter' advancing his agenda at the expense of the people. Has nothing to do with fighting for the 'people' of Skyrim. For an example, just look at the social order of Windhelm. Unlike the Empire which has been investing heavily in the 'people' and pledges to do more so once the war ends.

 

[LegateFasendil]

He's not doing anything wrong? So planning to kidnap citizens and put them to torture is normal and being loyal to Windhelm? Now you're dancing on a thin edge in becoming like the Thalmor.

What legitimate concern do they have? Imperial Legion armor being in their tavern? Firstly it isn't Officer armor, but standard Legionnaire gear. Secondly, Imperial armor could mean many things... The last being Imperial spies.

The Empire mass produces those armor pieces. I sometimes find them in bandit camps, are the Bandits working for us too? Hell I've even found them on Giants, guess they're part of our new primitive task force.

Torturer: "You fellows happened along just in time. These boys seemed a bit upset at how I've been entertaining their comrades."
Hadvar: "Don't you even know what's going on? A dragon is attacking Helgen!"
Torturer: "A dragon? Please. Don't make up nonsense. Although, come to think of it, I did hear some odd noises coming from over there."
Hadvar: "Come with us. We need to get out of here."
Torturer: "You have no authority over me, boy."
Hadvar: "Didn't you hear me? I said the keep is under attack!"
Assistant: "Forget the old man. I'll come with you."

At this point, Hadvar will notice a dead mage locked in a cell and say:
Hadvar: "Wait a second. Looks like there's something in this cage."
Torturer: "Don't bother with that. Lost the key ages ago. Poor fellow screamed for weeks."
Hadvar: "See if you can get it open with some picks. We'll need everything we can get."
Torturer: "Sure, take all my things. Please."

So Drunkenmage, Let me get this straight, and please, Enough with the double standards bullcrap... When an Imperial solider starts kidnapping people, locking them up in cages and purposely loses the key, and then gets a kick out of seeing them suffer for weeks until they finally die... That kind of behavior is perfectly OK but when a couple of nobodies from Windhelm threatens to interrogate a potential Imperial spy, it becomes an issue and the Stormcloaks is considered a tyrant that needs to be stop by the ole mighty Imperial Legion.

What reason did the Imperials had for torturing this man to death in such violent way that he had to scream for weeks? And why are their skeletons inside cages? Do the Imperials love the smell of decomposition?

What concern do they have? Someone or a group of people are spying on the Stormcloaks that resulted in the capture of the leader. Someone tip off the Imperials at the exact location that Ulfric would be at a certain time. It's safe to say that it was most likely someone from Windhelm.

Put two and two together and seeing the Imperial legion gear in the Dunmers tavern is substantial and crucial incriminating evidence that could even warrant a potential execution.

Do you not see a difference those two situations. Windhelm had three bodies, actual evidence in front of them, bit of basic detective work.

Falk had a second hand report of lights from a cave, no evidence presented to them. Villagers are known to be very superstitious, especially in Skyrim...

And when he did find out about Potema he was very concerned.

I do but you obviously do not... well not the severity that it can cause for the entire country of Skyrim. The cave has a very bad history.

I will repeat the quotes again since you seem to be missing the point. I will make it easier for you to comprehend by bolding up the essential elements that are crucial.

“You mean the Dragon Bridge issue? I'll be honest with you, I was planning to let that go. Varnius is a bit jumpy at the best of times.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00026c4a

“There have been reports of weird happenings near Wolfskull Cave. Travelers disappearing, odd lights. I suspect wild animals or perhaps bandits. I don't think it's worth our time with the war going on, but if you want to clear out the cave, I'll make sure you're repaid for your work.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x00026c49

“The cave has a bad history. Long ago, Potema the Wolf Queen used it for necromantic rituals. That's where it got the name. That was over 500 years ago. Nothing much down there now - but everyone's always convinced the cave is haunted.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0002c189

“Any resident of Solitude can tell you, she was the deadliest person ever to come out of Skyrim. Queen of Solitude, granddaughter of Emperor Uriel Septim II, five hundred years ago. Her fight for succession nearly tore the empire apart. After twenty years of fighting, she had raised armies of the dead, led by vampire generals. If she returns to power, nobody could stop her.”
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000284ef

So yeah. According to Falk their were evidence indicating that suspicious activity was going on in and near Wolfskull cave. People were disappearing and their were odd lights, clearly enough to warrant an investigation. He just dismiss it off by blaming wild animals. He clearly didn't want to do any investigation. It's all written there in bold red.

So yeah lets blame the Steward in Windhelm for not doing anything about the butcher murders while something is terribly brewing inside wolfsskull cave near Solitude.

You're saying Igmund is corrupt because he has powerful people like the Silver-Bloods in his city. Free-Winter is powerful in Windhelm, there are powerful people in every city.

I'm sorry, where does it say the mine is supposed to be owned by the city? The Silver-Bloods own the Treasury House, they're the god damn bank Raijin...

I still don't know what where you're going at here so I'm just going to end this particular debate. Igmund is #1 corrupted Jarl in Skyrim and the proof is there. Just open those eyes and ears and let the truth sink in.

Do you understand what Summary Execution means? Raijin, there is no court of law for this crime. Let Ulfric speak, summon witnesses? For the love of god man, what the hell for?

Ulfric is being executed for High Treason. That means for killing High King Torygg. Is Ulfric denying he killed Torygg? Are there witnesses who'll say it was someone else?

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - High Treason, Imperial Law.

Do you see a "Except for duels" in that law?

High treason for killing King Torygg huh? Torygg verbally accepted the terms by invoking the Nordic traditions, and therefor in the laws of Skyrim the duel was in legal bounds. The Imperials call it high treason because Ulfric cut off the last string of authority that the Empire has on Skyrim.

What minor offenders? Are you talking about Helgen? That was a misunderstanding, and it was a mistake which the Legion admits. These things happen in war time, both the Empire and Stormcloaks kill innocents by accident. That is established.

Since when is it an executable offense to steal a horse? Misunderstanding and a mistake? Yeah try to explain that one to his family.

Imperial law on stealing.

Any act of stealing, taking, or, without explicit written or verbal permission (or what a reasonable person would infer as implied permission) an item or items from a person, group of persons, or entity a reasonable person might assume to be sentient's place of residence, business, person, or other location a reasonable person would assume is secured from looting. The punishment for this crime may include a fine or incarceration, or a fine and incarceration.

These are the usual, day-to-day definitions used by legal experts (like myself), but both the definitions and punishments may fluctuate wildly according to location and situation. In the Imperial City, legal counsel is available by persons like myself, but the provinces have no such system in place. Perhaps that will change in time. We can all hope so.

Dude. You're begging the point here. None of this is relevant. Look at the holds, does everyone chop your head off for stealing? Nope. And not every Imperial is like that sadistic jailer. Ulfric has a torture room beneath his city as well. Ulfric also imprisons people who speak out against him.

Misunderstandings happen and as had already been explained to you on NUMEROUS occasions, Skryim is under Martial Law because of Ulfric murdering the High King. You're trying to use one bad deal at Helgen when you're caught red-handed with the enemy commander... You can't judge the entire Empire because of that. EVERYTHING that went on at Helgen is circumstantial, not the norm.

As for Torygg, yes it was murder. And then not allowing the Moot to meet was treason. Let me ask you something Mr Big Freedom Fighter, have you ever heard of offering someone the Olive Branch? So that you can formally petition your case for Independence in a Civil manner? The FACT that this was never done along with Torygg's death is a red flag Ulfric is after the crown and proves that he doesn't deserve it. The purpose of being High King is to help other people not help yourself. Torygg understood this which is why he tried to defend his position. However, in his in-experience he made the wrong moves... and I'm not talking about in battle. But Torygg didn't deserve that.

Fighting a boy is one thing but the fact Ulfric doesn't personally answer the challenge from Jarl B proves he's a coward.

Ulfric has a lot of unnecessary blood on his hands so he can be High King and have his revenge on the Empire. No other reason.

 

[Raijin]

What Skyrim's Laws are has no bearing on the fact that he broke IMPERIAL LAW, as in the the law of the Empire.

IF Skyrim was truly independent at the time, then you would have a point. But since Torygg was the representative of the Empire at the time he was killed, Ulfric broke IMPERIAL law killing him, no matter the circumstances.

Is it truly Ulfric's fault that Torygg was too stupid not to realize that what he was agreeing with was against Imperial law? Or was the sleazy little Torygg pulling a fast one by entrapping Ulfric to commit a serious crime?

As a high king you're suppose to be highly skilled in politics and law, and Torygg had neither skill. He purposely entrapped his citizen by breaking the law when he agreed to fight him in the traditional way. His agreement had only cost his life, but created a civil war in Skyrim because Torygg accepted a traditional fight that meant nothing by Imperial law.

"I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No "murder" was committed. " http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347e

 

[Raijin]

Dude. You're begging the point here. None of this is relevant. Look at the holds, does everyone chop your head off for stealing? Nope. And not every Imperial is like that sadistic jailer. Ulfric has a torture room beneath his city as well. Ulfric also imprisons people who speak out against him.

Misunderstandings happen and as had already been explained to you on NUMEROUS occasions, Skryim is under Martial Law because of Ulfric murdering the High King. You're trying to use one bad deal at Helgen when you're caught red-handed with the enemy commander... You can't judge the entire Empire because of that. EVERYTHING that went on at Helgen is circumstantial, not the norm.

As for Torygg, yes it was murder. And then not allowing the Moot to meet was treason. Let me ask you something Mr Big Freedom Fighter, have you ever heard of offering someone the Olive Branch? So that you can formally petition your case for Independence in a Civil manner? The FACT that this was never done along with Torygg's death is a red flag Ulfric is after the crown and proves that he doesn't deserve it. The purpose of being High King is to help other people not help yourself. Torygg understood this which is why he tried to defend his position. However, in his in-experience he made the wrong moves... and I'm not talking about in battle. But Torygg didn't deserve that.

Fighting a boy is one thing but the fact Ulfric doesn't personally answer the challenge from Jarl B proves he's a coward.

Ulfric has a lot of unnecessary blood on his hands so he can be High King and have his revenge on the Empire. No other reason.

Dude what the hell are you saying? I am being relevant. You just being difficult, and refuse to acknowledge pure hard facts that I'm bringing to this table. You Imperials are so hard headed that nothing gets through in your head. At least I'm willing to be open minded.

Yeah Ulfric does have a torture room in his prison, but I haven't yet see him torturing anyone or execute anyone. Both in Oblivion in Skyrim The Empire has you either locked up in jail, or getting ready to execute you without any explanation as of what you've been convicted of doing.

And no. Torygg wasn't murdered and I explain this when I replied to Jeremius's latest post. Please be open minded when you read it. Let the Imperial blood leave your veins for a brief moment before rendering your verdict.

 

[Daryl Dixon]

Empire law and Skyrim law:

Skyrim can have it's own laws even when under control of the empire. I'll use America as an example. In certain states it is legal to smoke cannabis, in others it is not. There are other laws where it is legal to do something in one state and not in another.

I believe Ulfric was foolish to kill the king, but I do not believe it was murder. Go talk to him in Sovenguard.

Also, for the start of the game in each TES, I doubt Bethesda was thinking of how bad the empire is when they did that. Todd Howard said it was so you could create your own background, it's really just for role-play purposes and to kick off the game. It's just what they chose.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Empire law and Skyrim law:

Skyrim can have it's own laws even when under control of the empire. I'll use America as an example. In certain states it is legal to smoke cannabis, in others it is not. There are other laws where it is legal to do something in one state and not in another.

I believe Ulfric was foolish to kill the king, but I do not believe it was murder. Go talk to him in Sovenguard.

Also, for the start of the game in each TES, I doubt Bethesda was thinking of how bad the empire is when they did that. Todd Howard said it was so you could create your own background, it's really just for role-play purposes and to kick off the game. It's just what they chose.

He found a way to lawfully murder the king then. Which if truth be known was all completely avoidable and unnecessary on the part of both parties.

 

[Daryl Dixon]

He found a way to lawfully murder the king then. Which if truth be known was all completely avoidable and unnecessary on the part of both parties.

I prefer the term kill. It's Nordic culture, that challenge. We cannot talk about 'true nords' if the empire is trying to trip away a races culture and ways just because they're upset.

Keep in mind I'm not against the empire, with the stormcloaks winning I believe everyone is doomed. But that doesn't mean the stormcloaks are wrong.

This is a situation where every possible solution will make it worse.

 

[LegateFasendil]

Dude. You're begging the point here. None of this is relevant. Look at the holds, does everyone chop your head off for stealing? Nope. And not every Imperial is like that sadistic jailer. Ulfric has a torture room beneath his city as well. Ulfric also imprisons people who speak out against him.

Misunderstandings happen and as had already been explained to you on NUMEROUS occasions, Skryim is under Martial Law because of Ulfric murdering the High King. You're trying to use one bad deal at Helgen when you're caught red-handed with the enemy commander... You can't judge the entire Empire because of that. EVERYTHING that went on at Helgen is circumstantial, not the norm.

As for Torygg, yes it was murder. And then not allowing the Moot to meet was treason. Let me ask you something Mr Big Freedom Fighter, have you ever heard of offering someone the Olive Branch? So that you can formally petition your case for Independence in a Civil manner? The FACT that this was never done along with Torygg's death is a red flag Ulfric is after the crown and proves that he doesn't deserve it. The purpose of being High King is to help other people not help yourself. Torygg understood this which is why he tried to defend his position. However, in his in-experience he made the wrong moves... and I'm not talking about in battle. But Torygg didn't deserve that.

Fighting a boy is one thing but the fact Ulfric doesn't personally answer the challenge from Jarl B proves he's a coward.

Ulfric has a lot of unnecessary blood on his hands so he can be High King and have his revenge on the Empire. No other reason.

Dude what the hell are you saying? I am being relevant. You just being difficult, and refuse to acknowledge pure hard facts that I'm bringing to this table. You Imperials are so hard headed that nothing gets through in your head. At least I'm willing to be open minded.

Yeah Ulfric does have a torture room in his prison, but I haven't yet see him torturing anyone or execute anyone. Both in Oblivion in Skyrim The Empire has you either locked up in jail, or getting ready to execute you without any explanation as of what you've been convicted of doing.

And no. Torygg wasn't murdered and I explain this when I replied to Jeremius's latest post. Please be open minded when you read it. Let the Imperial blood leave your veins for a brief moment before rendering your verdict.

Yes, I am being difficult. It's like a saying I heard one time... which I can't recall at present XD but the jest is I won't let you kill me or Empire, not even a little bit so then I must not be "cooperating" or being "reasonable".

Indeed. You're facts use a small scope to try and justify a larger problem. No offense but that's how alot of your arguments go.

Me, I don't care. I just have a couple drinks and roll out... don't care what anybody thinks. Cept for General Tullius of course... and perhaps General Mage. And then... I wouldn't want to offend Legate Rikke, I think enough folks have pissed in her cornflakes. Then there's Jarl Elisif, she's sensitive and really depressed right now... and then there's Heimskr, don't want to give him any more reason to hate the Empire... then of course there's Ulfric, probably need to lay off the hateful rederick he's also depressed... and dead of course... then there's Hadvar, he's a nice guy but is a little upset with me for skinning Ralof... then of course, there's Ralof and well nevermind.

But you get the point. Which for some reason I do care. Not sure why. I mean this is a video game but... I dunno. It's good stuff and a hell of alot more interesting than watching the news or watching the d*cless lunatics running America drag this country into hell.

 

[LegateFasendil]

He found a way to lawfully murder the king then. Which if truth be known was all completely avoidable and unnecessary on the part of both parties.

I prefer the term kill. It's Nordic culture, that challenge. We cannot talk about 'true nords' if the empire is trying to trip away a races culture and ways just because they're upset.

Keep in mind I'm not against the empire, with the stormcloaks winning I believe everyone is doomed. But that doesn't mean the stormcloaks are wrong.

This is a situation where every possible solution will make it worse.

Dammit Dixon you're sucking all the energy out of the room!

Ok, yes, Torygg accepted the challenge so no matter what Ulfric's intentions were, Torygg accepted his fate. That still doesn't excuse Ulfric for denying the Moot to meet though.

But yes, technically speaking the blood is on Torygg's head because he accepted the challenge according to the 'old ways'. Whether this was true or not, point is he thought it was. And the results are Ulfric's doing as much as Torygg's for going along with it.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Charisma doesn't make a ruler. The Empire needs another Titus Mede, now he was an Emperor.

What he means is the need a man of the people, like Ulfric. Someone who's able to round up support through his anger and words. Really the Empire should hire him for recruitment, as long as they pledge to leave Skyrim.

Errmmm No. Man of the people... man of... the people. Hmmm... Ulfric is not a man of the people, he only represents his people. Stormcloaks is a charismatic cause... Ulfric doesn't want to represent all of the people. He stopped the Moot from meeting and killed the High King who represented the people.

Ulfric has actually done more to work AGAINST the people of Skyrim, or people of Skyrim in general. He's not for the people he's for himself and his cause. If Ulfric was for the people than the people's best interests would have been given first priority.

Ok someone like Jarl B is a man of the people. He provides his hold with freedom to worship Talos and freedom of speech and puts HIS people first. Ulfric puts his cause FIRST it's just that some of his people benefit from it.

Jarl B was ready to DEFEND his people from Ulfric during the Battle for Whiterun while Ulfric sent his people to DIE for his cause.

You endow Ulfric with magical thinking when in reality there's nothing magical about him. He's just another so called 'Freedom Fighter' advancing his agenda at the expense of the people. Has nothing to do with fighting for the 'people' of Skyrim. For an example, just look at the social order of Windhelm. Unlike the Empire which has been investing heavily in the 'people' and pledges to do more so once the war ends.

A man who RELATES to the people, Like Ulfric.

 

[Jeremius]

What Skyrim's Laws are has no bearing on the fact that he broke IMPERIAL LAW, as in the the law of the Empire.

IF Skyrim was truly independent at the time, then you would have a point. But since Torygg was the representative of the Empire at the time he was killed, Ulfric broke IMPERIAL law killing him, no matter the circumstances.

Is it truly Ulfric's fault that Torygg was too stupid not to realize that what he was agreeing with was against Imperial law? Or was the sleazy little Torygg pulling a fast one by entrapping Ulfric to commit a serious crime?

As a high king you're suppose to be highly skilled in politics and law, and Torygg had neither skill. He purposely entrapped his citizen by breaking the law when he agreed to fight him in the traditional way. His agreement had only cost his life, but created a civil war in Skyrim because Torygg accepted a traditional fight that meant nothing by Imperial law.

"I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No "murder" was committed. " http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347e

Murder and treason are not the same. I could challenge the leader of Russia to a fight, and beat him up, but I would still get in trouble because I broke the law of Russia by fighting their leader.

Same here. Ulfric may not have "murdered" Torygg, but he broke imperial law by killing him, committing treason in the process.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

What Skyrim's Laws are has no bearing on the fact that he broke IMPERIAL LAW, as in the the law of the Empire.

IF Skyrim was truly independent at the time, then you would have a point. But since Torygg was the representative of the Empire at the time he was killed, Ulfric broke IMPERIAL law killing him, no matter the circumstances.

Is it truly Ulfric's fault that Torygg was too stupid not to realize that what he was agreeing with was against Imperial law? Or was the sleazy little Torygg pulling a fast one by entrapping Ulfric to commit a serious crime?

As a high king you're suppose to be highly skilled in politics and law, and Torygg had neither skill. He purposely entrapped his citizen by breaking the law when he agreed to fight him in the traditional way. His agreement had only cost his life, but created a civil war in Skyrim because Torygg accepted a traditional fight that meant nothing by Imperial law.

"I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No "murder" was committed. " http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347e

Murder and treason are not the same. I could challenge the leader of Russia to a fight, and beat him up, but I would still get in trouble because I broke the law of Russia by fighting their leader.

Same here. Ulfric may not have "murdered" Torygg, but he broke imperial law by killing him, committing treason in the process.

I agree he committed treason but from separating from the Empire his lands effectively became his own country.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I think the Stormcloaks are blinded by Morrowind Duels, which are not the same at all, and applying that stuff to the "ancient traditions." but then again, wouldn't those duels be considered treason against those specific factions because of the actual law?

Nah, Morrowind was protected by the Armistice Treaty, unlike the other provinces which were either conquered or joined willingly with no conditions. Morrowind allowed Great House Law etc.

So Drunkenmage, Let me get this straight, and please, Enough with the double standards bullcrap... When an Imperial solider starts kidnapping people, locking them up in cages and purposely loses the key, and then gets a kick out of seeing them suffer for weeks until they finally die... That kind of behavior is perfectly OK but when a couple of nobodies from Windhelm threatens to interrogate a potential Imperial spy, it becomes an issue and the Stormcloaks is considered a tyrant that needs to be stop by the ole mighty Imperial Legion.

I'm not saying it is okay, that Tortuer is obviously twisted in the head. As Hadvar mentions "These bastards call themselves Legionnaires?"

The issue is threatening to interrogate people just because they're Elves and the Thalmor are Elves too.

What reason did the Imperials had for torturing this man to death in such violent way that he had to scream for weeks? And why are their skeletons inside cages? Do the Imperials love the smell of decomposition?

No idea, for all we know he could be a serial killer. Fact is we don't know, can't exactly speculate the man was as innocent as you could get.

What concern do they have? Someone or a group of people are spying on the Stormcloaks that resulted in the capture of the leader. Someone tip off the Imperials at the exact location that Ulfric would be at a certain time. It's safe to say that it was most likely someone from Windhelm.

Or Tullius is just a better commander. There is no evidence that the Dunmer are spying, the only thing Rolff has is the fact they're Elves.

Put two and two together and seeing the Imperial legion gear in the Dunmers tavern is substantial and crucial incriminating evidence that could even warrant a potential execution.

Except the Stormcloaks don't know about that gear, they don't go into that tavern. I'm still trying to figure out how in the world heavy armor = obvious Imperial spy.

Do agents and spies keep faction armor around in your mind?

I do but you obviously do not... well not the severity that it can cause for the entire country of Skyrim. The cave has a very bad history.

So yeah. According to Falk their were evidence indicating that suspicious activity was going on in and near Wolfskull cave. People were disappearing and their were odd lights, clearly enough to warrant an investigation. He just dismiss it off by blaming wild animals. He clearly didn't want to do any investigation. It's all written there in bold red.

So yeah lets blame the Steward in Windhelm for not doing anything about the butcher murders while something is terribly brewing inside wolfsskull cave near Solitude.

Why wouldn't he blame animals or possible bandits? Someone tells you about odd lights and people disppearing surrounding a Cave that has quite a history...

Are you going to think "Yeah, probably local superstitions and it's just some animals."

Or are you going to be all "Well obviously it is the 500 year old Necromancer Potema the Wolf Queen of Solitude, being raised up by a bunch of powerful Necromancers."

There is a difference Raijin. Dead people in front of you vs report of lights about a cave that has a dark past and villagers would have thousands of superstitions about.

High treason for killing King Torygg huh? Torygg verbally accepted the terms by invoking the Nordic traditions, and therefor in the laws of Skyrim the duel was in legal bounds. The Imperials call it high treason because Ulfric cut off the last string of authority that the Empire has on Skyrim.

Law doesn't work like that, and it was a good political move by Ulfric. He invoked a Nordic tradition that would conflict with Imperial law, which is what the Stormcloaks are about. They're fighting for the 'Nord way of life'

If you always want to see it as Imperials trying to silence him, denying him fair trials... go for it.

Since when is it an executable offense to steal a horse? Misunderstanding and a mistake? Yeah try to explain that one to his family.

Well since he was trying to steal the horse and flee into Hammerfell... If he had any family at home, he was obviously abandoning them.

He was thought to have been a Stormcloak, which is why you hear him pleading to Ralof to tell the Imperials he wasn't with them.

He also ran, so technically we didn't execute him for thievery. He was killed trying to flee processing. He uh... tripped... and fell on an arrow?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Both in Oblivion in Skyrim The Empire has you either locked up in jail, or getting ready to execute you without any explanation as of what you've been convicted of doing.

Lore wise you're there because of the will of the Divines. Bethesda wise, as the post below you mentioned it is to give you a blank slate to create whatever background you want.

Has nothing to do with the Empire being bad or evil.