Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Moris]

No. "Following the Markarth Incident, Ulfric was arrested. His father, The Bear of Eastmarch, died while Ulfric was imprisoned, and Ulfric was forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter that he had smuggled out of prison" He was arrested so the dragging people wouldn't of happened yet, not until later on. Torygg wasn't High King yet. The dragging people would of happened just before the rebellion, to spark it off.

I'm just looking for some thing that tells me when the Thalmor started to arrest Skyrim citizens for worshipping Talos.

You said, "later on". I want a source that tells me when.

Did the Thalmor not arrest any Talos worshippers until after Torygg's death? If not, what basis do you have for believing that? I just want to nail it down.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

Only one side is valid, or one side is more valid... it matters not how you put it. The whole point being that if you're so convinced that the side you've chosen is right (or more valid, or whatever words you prefer to use), then you are missing half of the Civil War quest.

If you can't play it with a deep understanding of why the other side believes as they do, and for reasons that are EXACTLY as valid as your own, I think you're missing a big part of the experience. I think that's a shame.

Both sides of the quest are hardly different. How do you know who hasn't played both sides anyhow? All I was saying was that people are going to go with the side that they believe to have the most valid cause.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm just looking for some thing that tells me when the Thalmor started to arrest Skyrim citizens for worshipping Talos.

You said, "later on". I want a source that tells me when.

Did the Thalmor not arrest any Talos worshippers until after Torygg's death? If not, what basis do you have for believing that? I just want to nail it down.

I'm not saying that, I was saying Torygg wasn't High King yet, his father was still.

My guessing it would of been when "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it" I'm not too certain when the Sons of Skyrim started appearing, but the Thalmor are master planners, they would of done the arresting when Ulfric was released to spark the rebellion.

"Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me." So I am uncertain when it would of started exactly happening but best guess would be a few years before the Rebellion to set it off and give Ulfric a large force.

 

[Ozan]

"Ulfric escaped back to Windhelm to continue his campaign, purportedly with the aid of the Thalmor, who wished for Ulfric's rebellion to continue so Skyrim would remain divided and distracted" Lore - Ulfric Stormcloak

I see the side which is valid is the side that isn't be aided by the Thalmor, is the side that isn't helping the Thalmor complete their plans of destroying the Empire.

If the Stormcloak may be blamed for aiding the Thalmor in ending an empire, then the Empire may be blamed for aiding the Thalmor in oppressing and destroying her own people.

The Nord are still citizens, yet they are executed freely, without care or thought. Given away to be executed by foreigners.

Ozan's Empire would do no such thing. Can this one say the same? Or has the Thalmor been spotted escorting more than JUST Stormcloak warriors?

 

[Moris]

Both sides of the quest are hardly different. How do you know who hasn't played both sides anyhow? All I was saying was that people are going to go with the side that they believe to have the most valid cause.

And I'm saying that if you believe your side has a more valid cause, then you are invalidating other people's beliefs. Of course, you're entitled to believe that. But I find it sadly narrowminded.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

And I'm saying that if you believe your side has a more valid cause, then you are invalidating other people's beliefs. Of course, you're entitled to believe that. But I find it sadly narrowminded.

What do you mean you find it narrowminded? Is it not possible to lay out your options and decide which you believe to be the better cause? Again, you are taking what I say out of context or simply not comprehending its meaning.

 

[Moris]

I'm not saying that, I was saying Torygg wasn't High King yet, his father was still.

My guessing it would of been when "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it" I'm not too certain when the Sons of Skyrim started appearing, but the Thalmor are master planners, they would of done the arresting when Ulfric was released to spark the rebellion.

"Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me." So I am uncertain when it would of started exactly happening but best guess would be a few years before the Rebellion to set it off and give Ulfric a large force.

Thank you for the quotes.

So we have Alvor, and it seems pretty clear from what he says that the Thalmor have been arresting people for Talos worship for quite some time (decades maybe?) though not until after Ulfric's release from prison and the rise of the Sons of Skyrim.

Alvor's a nice guy. One of my favorite NPCs. But I do wish we had something else.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Thank you for the quotes.

So we have Alvor, and it seems pretty clear from what he says that the Thalmor have been arresting people for Talos worship for quite some time (decades maybe?) though not until after Ulfric's release from prison and the rise of the Sons of Skyrim.

Alvor's a nice guy. One of my favorite NPCs. But I do wish we had something else.

It may have been after the death of Torygg

"Ulfric managed to evade capture and fled back to Windhelm, where he called upon all "true" sons and daughters of Skyrim to join him in rebellion. As Jarls in the eastern holds flocked to his cause, all hope of avoiding war was lost." The Civil war had been going on for a little bit before his capture.

It would make sense, the Thalmor arresting people would cause more people to join the Stormcloaks thus keeping the war going?

 

[Moris]

What do you mean you find it narrowminded? Is it not possible to lay out your options and decide which you believe to be the better cause? Again, you are taking what I say out of context or simply not comprehending its meaning.

If I am given two options, yet I decide that one is so much better that I can no longer imagine myself taking the opposite view, I have narrowed my choices. To me, that suggests narrowmindedness, lack of tolerance or flexibility or breadth of view, as opposed to broadmindedness, the inclination to respect views and beliefs that differ from your own.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I do like the Legate Fasendil
"Fasendil requested a position in Skyrim in order to keep an eye on the Thalmor, whom he suspected of having a role in fueling the civil war."

We know from him that "Thalmor even carry out acts of ethnic cleansing on some segments of their own Bosmer and Altmer populations." Can only imagine what would happen to Khajiit who they probably see worse than man.

 

[Moris]

I do like the Legate Fasendil
"Fasendil requested a position in Skyrim in order to keep an eye on the Thalmor, whom he suspected of having a role in fueling the civil war."

We know from him that "Thalmor even carry out acts of ethnic cleansing on some segments of their own Bosmer and Altmer populations." Can only imagine what would happen to Khajiit who they probably see worse than man.

Fasendil's an Altmer, isn't he? They are very skilled at detecting subtleties.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Fasendil's an Altmer, isn't he? They are very skilled at detecting subtleties.

Yeah I did like how the Legion had these two.

 

[Raijin]

I do like the Legate Fasendil
"Fasendil requested a position in Skyrim in order to keep an eye on the Thalmor, whom he suspected of having a role in fueling the civil war."

We know from him that "Thalmor even carry out acts of ethnic cleansing on some segments of their own Bosmer and Altmer populations." Can only imagine what would happen to Khajiit who they probably see worse than man.

I don't mean to change the subject, but can you direct me to the lore book where it talks about the Night of Green Fire?

 

[DrunkenMage]

I don't mean to change the subject, but can you direct me to the lore book where it talks about the Night of Green Fire?

There is none, Night of Green Fire comes from talking to Fansendil, the ethnic cleansing is pieced together from him and Delphine. When she talks about the wood elf in the embassy.

Skyrim:Legate Fasendil - UESPWiki

 

[DrunkenMage]

Though this is an interesting read.

Lore:Fourth Era - UESPWiki

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

If I am given two options, yet I decide that one is so much better that I can no longer imagine myself taking the opposite view, I have narrowed my choices. To me, that suggests narrowmindedness, lack of tolerance or flexibility or breadth of view, as opposed to broadmindedness, the inclination to respect views and beliefs that differ from your own.

If someones belief is that one side is the better cause than the other, why would they imagine themselves ever to take the other view? What they believe in will not change, their ideals or values won't vanish. Do you mean you want people to show understanding as to why the opposing side supports the other option? Empathy for why they believe what it is that they do? If so, I can understand a little better of what you're saying. Otherwise I'm sure many people have taken both sides into consideration, but chose the side they thought which had the more valid cause according to their beliefs. Just because someone sees one side to be more valid, doesn't necessarily mean they believe the other side to be completely invalid or wrong for believing it.

 

[Moris]

Hadrik Oaken-Heart (Flight from the Thalmor) was arrested for singing about Talos for seven days in a row, in Markarth. He calls the Thalmor "recently honored 'guests'", so I want to place the date of this event to not too long after the end of the Great War.

Even at this point in time, he says, "the open worship of Talos has been outlawed in Skyrim, and actively enforced in those cities where the Thalmor have a tangible presence. Cities, I might add, in which the Empire has the most secure foothold."

So the arrests had been going on for quite some time, and were not a recent event. Perhaps there is something in the lore to suggest that the arrests became more frequent recently?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Hadrik Oaken-Heart (Flight from the Thalmor) was arrested for singing about Talos for seven days in a row, in Markarth. He calls the Thalmor "recently honored 'guests'", so I want to place the date of this event to not too long after the end of the Great War.

Even at this point in time, he says, "the open worship of Talos has been outlawed in Skyrim, and actively enforced in those cities where the Thalmor have a tangible presence. Cities, I might add, in which the Empire has the most secure foothold."

So the arrests had been going on for quite some time, and were not a recent event. Perhaps there is something in the lore to suggest that the arrests became more frequent recently?

Recently honored guests doesn't mean they came soon after the great war, could of been several years. They had to establish an embassy, secure their status and such.

 

[Moris]

If someones belief is that one side is the better cause than the other, why would they imagine themselves ever to take the other view? What they believe in will not change, their ideals or values won't vanish. Do you mean you want people to show understanding as to why the opposing side supports the other option? Empathy for why they believe what it is that they do? If so, I can understand a little better of what you're saying. Otherwise I'm sure many people have taken both sides into consideration, but chose the side they thought which had the more valid cause according to their beliefs. Just because someone sees one side to be more valid, doesn't necessarily mean they believe the other side to be completely invalid or wrong for believing it.

What I am saying is that I do not see very much of that empathy or understanding to which you refer coming from those who have actually chosen a side -- Docta Corvina is one outstanding exception. I have seen an awful lot of bashing and trading of personal insults. This doesn't give me the impression that very many proponents on either side are all that open minded or empathetic or respectful of the others views.

ETA: They may well be perfectly respectful and empathetic, but it's not the impression that I get from this thread.

I entered this thread and started to argue for the SC specifically because I saw newbies posting which side they'd chosen, and they were confronted with a barrage of posts explaining why they were wrong. And this seemed a bit unfair. A person brand new to the game should be given a chance to experience it on their own terms first, at least. And if they can't do that because they made the mistake of reading the last few pages of this thread, I'd like them to at least get a balanced view.

 

[Moris]

Recently honored guests doesn't mean they came soon after the great war, could of been several years. They had to establish an embassy, secure their status and such.

Several years, sure. But not 20 or 26, I think.