Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mr.Self Destruct]

To a point, yes

So why do you insist that the Empire should've fought until the bitter end; even if it meant the deaths of many, when the party you support couldn't themselves?

 

[Mookie]

So why do you insist that the Empire should've fought until the bitter end; even if it meant the deaths of many, when the party you support couldn't themselves?

The idea I suport is not Ulfric, idea is independent skyrim.

 

[Mookie]

So why do you insist that the Empire should've fought until the bitter end; even if it meant the deaths of many, when the party you support couldn't themselves?

Because it is what is has to do

 

[Tyer032392]

I will not repeat myself. empire is all about cyrodil and imperial city. Thalmor know that, that is where they will charge next war and take it, and then they will look for new concessions.

How long do the dunmer live?

You do realize that it takes several provinces for a faction to be considered an "Empire", right? By how you are claiming it is only Cyrodiil and the Imperial City shows you have no real understanding on how empires, kingdoms, fiefdoms, work. The Empire is currently comprised of the province of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell (before seceding to continue the fight against the Aldemri Dominion).

 

[Mookie]

You do realize that it takes several provinces for a faction to be considered and "Empire", right? By how you are claiming it is only Cyrodiil and the Imperial City shows you have no real understanding on how empires, kingdoms, fiefdoms, work. The Empire is currently comprised of the province of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell (before seceding to continue the fight against the Aldemri Dominion).

Who are willing to give up god, teritorial integrity, and security to keep the imperial city...
The other provinces are nothing for the empire except pawns to be used for resources and diplomatic games.

 

[Tyer032392]

Who are willing to give up god, teritorial integrity, and security to keep the imperial city...
The other provinces are nothing for the empire except pawns to be used for resources and diplomatic games.

Yet you forget that the Empire was exhausted because of having its heartland ravaged by the Aldermi Dominion for a good portion of the war. I can assure you that if it was Skyrim who was having all the battles and not Cyrodiil, Skyrim would of given up in a heartbeat. The Aldermi Dominion had done up until the Red Mountain battle been fighting on the enemy territory meaning that with prolonged conflict, the Empire's war exhaustion would be rise to the point at where they COULD not fight anymore. The Battle of Red Mountain was a desperate gamble made by the Empire with no evidence that it could of even succeed to try and route the Aldermi forces. When the entire Aldmeri army was destroyed gave the Empire some needed time and brought the Thalmor back to the negotiating table.

 

[Mookie]

Yet you forget that the Empire was exhausted because of having its heartland ravaged by the Aldermi Dominion for a good portion of the war. I can assure you that if it was Skyrim who was having all the battles and not Cyrodiil, Skyrim would of given up in a heartbeat. The Aldermi Dominion had done up until the Red Mountain battle been fighting on the enemy territory meaning that with prolonged conflict, the Empire's war exhaustion would be rise to the point at where they COULD not fight anymore. The Battle of Red Mountain was a desperate gamble made by the Empire with no evidence that it could of even succeed to try and route the Aldermi forces. When the entire Aldmeri army was destroyed gave the Empire some needed time and brought the Thalmor back to the negotiating table.

Because of lack of preparation. For 70-80 years they sat on their hands.
You dont know what would hapen if war came to Skyrim.
25 years later empire is same as before the war, corupt, incapable and ill prepared.

 

[Tyer032392]

Because of lack of preparation. For 70-80 years they sat on their hands.

Pretty much as I figured, you really have no idea of what you are talking about. But, seeing as you apparently know everything there is to know about everything, how would you prepare for something that you have not had any contact in for 100+ years, all your agents in that place are dead that could give you information. The answer is you cannot prepare for that but be reliant on your armies ability to hold their own long enough for a country to mobilize

You dont know what would hapen if war came to Skyrim.

Actually, I do. Have you ever heard of a very cool term called history?

25 years later empire is same as before the war, corupt, incapable and ill prepared.

While the Empire is not completely innocent and there is corruption, that is to be expected with any empire. Heck, look at the Roman Empire for example. However, I can also assure you that Skyrim would be the exact same way just because of how incapable Ulfric is as well. In fact, Ulfric is one of the most incapable leaders in Skyrim by far.

 

[DrunkenMage]

SKYRIM WASNT. That exactly is my point. Empire had lands untouched by war. They should have kept going. Instead they are all about imperial city.
They will make a deal and ask for concesions, they have no use for that many humans in their lands. They have time, they live for thousands of years. They can play it calm and nice, taking litle by litle untill they get humans into litle enclaves.


It is not about who is best at warfare nor it is about wining lasting batles in valenwood. It is a chaos mission. Soldiers are sent there to utilize the element of suprise to maximum and go back. They arent there to have a lasting victory and hold cities.
It is a strike to force thalmor to divert forces from frontlines, then retreat, leave some forces in high rock to keep the thalmor on their toes and force them to divert while sending most of the army back to main battles.

Dying in naval warfare is highly unlikely for the first time that hapens because it is unexpected. Even you think its madness to do it and that is why it needs to be done.

Will the mountains of Skyrim pick up a sword? Will the buildings in High Rock wield a shield? Lands untouched by war don't mean soldiers. Skyrim lost the Reach for two years, it took two years for them to reclaim it, that speaks volumes on how the war effected Skyrim they had no soldiers. It isn't all about the Imperial City, the Imperial City was important because it was where the Thalmor Army was destroyed. If the entire Dominion army in Cyrodiil was in Skingrad it'd be the Battle of the Gold Road. The Imperial City however was where the battle took place, it was important because it was where the Dominion was defeated in that battle. The Empire didn't surrender, they sought peace terms. The Empire was offered a chance to surrender when the Thalmor took the Imperial City, they offered the Empire peace and the Empire didn't take it. So they aren't cowards, calling them cowards because they didn't do something that would of destroyed the Empire and left thousands at the mercy of the Dominion. If you think a few Thalmor Agents are bad, you don't want to see Dominion control. The things they did to the innocent population of the Imperial City was bad enough to be recorded in a TES war. Looking at all the wars in TES universe, very rarely do you come across atrocities that are mentioned unless it was bad.

If you find it cowardly when you have to consider thousands of innocent people, then there is indeed something wrong. Being a good leader is knowing when to fight and when not to fight. The Imperial Legion simply could not continue the war, they barely had enough soldiers to maintain order. Every city except Bruma was harmed by the Thalmor, you have bandits roaming free without worry of Imperial patrols. You would leave your province burning, your populations of women, children, elderly at the mercy of brigands and various creatures that prey on villages and people. Just so you could continue the war with less than half your army remaining? Tell me how that will win the war, how will sending your soldiers who are unfit for combat into battle lines will help the Empire. There are thousands of people to consider, the Imperial Army isn't everyone. You going to send all forces towards Hammerfell and fight in a war that would go on for years while Cyrodiil remains open to attack, thus making Skyrim to attack. Cyrodiil is very important it is the buffer zone between the Dominion and Skyrim, like the Legionnaires say "The Empire is what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim." The Nords would be easy targets, Ulfric's handful of nord militia can't exactly protect all of Skyrim.

'Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.'

Yes it was cowardly to sign those terms.

You blame one man, on a treaty that has more than likely the signature of many. Treaties can't be signed by the Emperor himself, this is noted within lore that it requires the Elder Council to dictate what terms are in a treaty and since it effected all of the provinces they all had to agree. Skyrim agreed, Cyrodiil agreed, High Rock agreed, Hammerfell rejected. Skyrim could of rejected, they didn't. High King Istlod accepted the terms and it was not disputed. Ulfric himself wouldn't even speak out against Istlod, yet he blames the Empire for the treaty but loves the man who accepted it for Skyrim. Stormcloaks are not all of Skyrim, they are only the eastern half currently. So it'll never be Imperials vs Nords, you kill more Nords than Imperials during the Stormcloak quest line anyway.

The idea I suport is not Ulfric, idea is independent skyrim.

Independent Skyrim, it is a great idea except not at the cost the Stormcloaks are doing. Skyrim could have left peacefully except Ulfric wanted the throne for himself. High King Torygg greatly respected Ulfric's views on independent Skyrim and wanted to hear more of it, what everyone expected was Ulfric to actually ask Torygg to declare independence, except he challenged him and bloodshed followed, half of Skyrim called him murderer, other half called him hero. The Nine Holds went into Civil war, Whiterun remaining neutral. Legion garrison in Skyrim stepped in to restore order, forced to recruit locally forming Auxiliary Legionnaires that joined willingly, those who fight in the Legion many are from Skyrim, a thing many Stormcloaks fail to realize is it's a civil war because families are torn apart, they're fighting each other. It isn't so simple as Nords vs Imperials.

"I realize some of you may know men on the other side. But remember this. They are the enemy now and will not hesitate to end your lives either." - Rikke

"This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!" - Rikke

 

[Mookie]

Pretty much as I figured, you really have no idea of what you are talking about. But, seeing as you apparently know everything there is to know about everything, how would you prepare for something that you have not had any contact in for 100+ years, all your agents in that place are dead that could give you information. The answer is you cannot prepare for that but be reliant on your armies ability to hold their own long enough for a country to mobilize



Actually, I do. Have you ever heard of a very cool term called history?



While the Empire is not completely innocent and there is corruption, that is to be expected with any empire. Heck, look at the Roman Empire for example. However, I can also assure you that Skyrim would be the exact same way just because of how incapable Ulfric is as well. In fact, Ulfric is one of the most incapable leaders in Skyrim by far.

Having all your agents dead is a pretty good signal that some plops is going down...
But hell that is just me. Still, you are an empire, you are suposed to be mighty and ready all the time.
Relying on army to hold their own doesnt win wars or secure future, nor does it honor the empire.


Enlighten me with that history...


There is coruption, there is decadence, there is powermongering from the highest positions, down to mages and lowest orders. Empire is a perfect copy of 4th century roman empire. It is time to fall

 

[Mookie]

Will the mountains of Skyrim pick up a sword? Will the buildings in High Rock wield a shield? Lands untouched by war don't mean soldiers. Skyrim lost the Reach for two years, it took two years for them to reclaim it, that speaks volumes on how the war effected Skyrim they had no soldiers. It isn't all about the Imperial City, the Imperial City was important because it was where the Thalmor Army was destroyed. If the entire Dominion army in Cyrodiil was in Skingrad it'd be the Battle of the Gold Road. The Imperial City however was where the battle took place, it was important because it was where the Dominion was defeated in that battle. The Empire didn't surrender, they sought peace terms. The Empire was offered a chance to surrender when the Thalmor took the Imperial City, they offered the Empire peace and the Empire didn't take it. So they aren't cowards, calling them cowards because they didn't do something that would of destroyed the Empire and left thousands at the mercy of the Dominion. If you think a few Thalmor Agents are bad, you don't want to see Dominion control. The things they did to the innocent population of the Imperial City was bad enough to be recorded in a TES war. Looking at all the wars in TES universe, very rarely do you come across atrocities that are mentioned unless it was bad.

If you find it cowardly when you have to consider thousands of innocent people, then there is indeed something wrong. Being a good leader is knowing when to fight and when not to fight. The Imperial Legion simply could not continue the war, they barely had enough soldiers to maintain order. Every city except Bruma was harmed by the Thalmor, you have bandits roaming free without worry of Imperial patrols. You would leave your province burning, your populations of women, children, elderly at the mercy of brigands and various creatures that prey on villages and people. Just so you could continue the war with less than half your army remaining? Tell me how that will win the war, how will sending your soldiers who are unfit for combat into battle lines will help the Empire. There are thousands of people to consider, the Imperial Army isn't everyone. You going to send all forces towards Hammerfell and fight in a war that would go on for years while Cyrodiil remains open to attack, thus making Skyrim to attack. Cyrodiil is very important it is the buffer zone between the Dominion and Skyrim, like the Legionnaires say "The Empire is what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim." The Nords would be easy targets, Ulfric's handful of nord militia can't exactly protect all of Skyrim.

'Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year.'



You blame one man, on a treaty that has more than likely the signature of many. Treaties can't be signed by the Emperor himself, this is noted within lore that it requires the Elder Council to dictate what terms are in a treaty and since it effected all of the provinces they all had to agree. Skyrim agreed, Cyrodiil agreed, High Rock agreed, Hammerfell rejected. Skyrim could of rejected, they didn't. High King Istlod accepted the terms and it was not disputed. Ulfric himself wouldn't even speak out against Istlod, yet he blames the Empire for the treaty but loves the man who accepted in for Skyrim. Stormcloaks are not all of Skyrim, they are only the eastern half currently. So it'll never be Imperials vs Nords, you kill more Nords than Imperials during the Stormcloak quest line anyway.



Independent Skyrim, it is a great idea except not at the cost the Stormcloaks are doing. Skyrim could have left peacefully except Ulfric wanted the throne for himself. High King Torygg greatly respected Ulfric's views on independent Skyrim and wanted to hear more of it, what everyone expected was Ulfric to actually ask Torygg to declare independence, except he challenged him and bloodshed followed, half of Skyrim called him murderer, other half called him hero. The Nine Holds went into Civil war, Whiterun remaining neutral. Legion garrison in Skyrim stepped in to restore order, forced to recruit locally forming Auxiliary Legionnaires that joined willingly, those who fight in the Legion many are from Skyrim, a thing many Stormcloaks fail to realize is it's a civil war because families are torn apart, they're fighting each other. It isn't so simple as Nords vs Imperials.

"I realize some of you may know men on the other side. But remember this. They are the enemy now and will not hesitate to end your lives either." - Rikke

"This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!" - Rikke

Empty stories. Empire wouldnt let Skyrim go. Never. Even if entire Skyrim wants it they will never let go. You can tell those stories to someone else.


The empire didnt surender, they won so they signed the glorious and victorious terms of WGC in which thalmor threat was neutralized.

And please dont copy paste Rikkes quotes, because you wouldnt accept Ulfrics/Galmars quotes the way you want me to accept those.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Having all your agents dead is a pretty good signal that some pl*** is going down...
But hell that is just me. Still, you are an empire, you are suposed to be mighty and ready all the time.
Relying on army to hold their own doesnt win wars or secure future, nor does it honor the empire.


Enlighten me with that history...


There is coruption, there is decadence, there is powermongering from the highest positions, down to mages and lowest orders. Empire is a perfect copy of 4th century roman empire. It is time to fall

The actions of the Blades were actually forgotten about when the assassination of Potentate Ocato occured, the Elder Council fractured and petty wars between them for the Ruby Throne. They were being ordered by him, but since he was assassinated and the Stormcrown Interregnum started. No one was left to know about the Blades, Titus Mede I certainly wouldn't of known he wasn't even a part of the leadership of the Empire.

 

[Tyer032392]

Having all your agents dead is a pretty good signal that some pl*** is going down...
But hell that is just me. Still, you are an empire, you are suposed to be mighty and ready all the time.

Not without destroying your economy. Just look at Rome for example. They maintained an army all the time to prepare and even though they lasted for a long while, they eventually fell due to exhaustion. In fact, during peace it is good to have a small force to protect, but once signs of trouble arise than you take the necessary procedures to get ready for a war.

Relying on army to hold their own doesnt win wars or secure future, nor does it honor the empire.

Actually, if your army can hold its ground and force a war of attrition, than you are on the road to victory. Every war is a war of attrition that every faction embarks upon. Let's use your "perfect" Stormcloak army for example, they will never face the legion head to head on equal footing but rely on hit and run tactics to weaken the legion in Skyrim. Vice versa, the Empire is also ambushing the Stormcloaks where ever they can to weaken the Stormclaok alliance. The only way to survive a war against a superior army is to fight a war of attrition with them. Which is exactly what the Empire did with the AD.

Enlighten me with that history...

Two words, Medieval Europe.

There is coruption, there is decadence, there is powermongering from the highest positions, down to mages and lowest orders. Empire is a perfect copy of 4th century roman empire. It is time to fall

That is where I can agree with you at; however, just because your cause may be true does not mean the government put in charge is. Also, do not associate a few bad eggs with the rest of the Empire, just as you don't associate Ulfric's power hungry attitude with the average "Stormcloak".

 

[DrunkenMage]

Empty stories. Empire wouldnt let Skyrim go. Never. Even if entire Skyrim wants it they will never let go. You can tell those stories to someone else.


The empire didnt surender, they won so they signed the glorious and victorious terms of WGC in which thalmor threat was neutralized.

And please dont copy paste Rikkes quotes, because you wouldnt accept Ulfrics/Galmars quotes the way you want me to accept those.

Not empty stories, it is fact. The Empire would of let Skyrim go if they left peacefully, Skyrim has been allies with Cyrodiil in the past. Losing Skyrim through violence they will hold onto it, but if they left on good terms there wouldn't be any issues.

They didn't surrender, they defeated the Dominion in Cyrodiil but they couldn't fight on. So a treaty was formed, if they surrendered there wouldn't be a treaty and there wouldn't be a Legion but Dominion Soldiers and an Elven Lord sitting on the Ruby Throne.

 

[Mookie]

Not without destroying your economy. Just look at Rome for example. They maintained an army all the time to prepare and even though they lasted for a long while, they eventually fell due to exhaustion. In fact, during peace it is good to have a small force to protect, but once signs of trouble arise than you take the necessary procedures to get ready for a war.



Actually, if your army can hold its ground and force a war of attrition, than you are on the road to victory. Every war is a war of attrition that every faction embarks upon. Let's use your "perfect" Stormcloak army for example, they will never face the legion head to head on equal footing but rely on hit and run tactics to weaken the legion in Skyrim. Vice versa, the Empire is also ambushing the Stormcloaks where ever they can to weaken the Stormclaok alliance. The only way to survive a war against a superior army is to fight a war of attrition with them. Which is exactly what the Empire did with the AD.



Two words, Medieval Europe.



That is where I can agree with you at; however, just because your cause may be true does not mean the government put in charge is. Also, do not associate a few bad eggs with the rest of the Empire, just as you don't associate Ulfric's power hungry attitude with the average "Stormcloak".

Rome fell because it relied on barbarian auxilia while keeping only a low real roman army. When migration of nations hapened, kinsman wouldnt fight his kinsman and barbarians simply overran the empire. But that is not the point.

I agree with the second point, but where is a war of atrition if you sing peace at first moments notice?
Fighting on means exactly that, war of atrition. Elves with their high breeding standards, longevity etc cant match up to man in that kind of war. A kind of war empire didnt wage.


Because the cause is true true leadership may arise. As Ulfric challenged Toryg a worthy challenger shall challenge him. Perhaps even Dovakhin...
But geting independence is first and foremost.

 

[Tyer032392]

Empty stories. Empire wouldnt let Skyrim go. Never. Even if entire Skyrim wants it they will never let go. You can tell those stories to someone else.

The Empire let Hammerfell leave peacefully to continue the fight against the AD. Had Skyrim done what Hammerfell did, than chances are that the Empire would of allowed Skyrim to secede. However, with the fact that Ulfric murdered the High King, and was at large, they were not convinced that Skyrim wanted to leave the Empire. In their eyes, it was just some power crazy man using the WGC and Talos as an excuse to become high king himself.

The empire didnt surender, they won so they signed the glorious and victorious terms of WGC in which thalmor threat was neutralized.

There is a difference between peace and surrender. In fact, the Empire surrendered under the guise of a peace treaty. The facts is that the AD held all the cards and probably had far more leverage than the Empire did. Emperor Mede II did what he thought was best for the Empire and just delayed what would eventually happen, and that is another war with the AD.

 

[Mookie]

Not empty stories, it is fact. The Empire would of let Skyrim go if they left peacefully, Skyrim has been allies with Cyrodiil in the past. Losing Skyrim through violence they will hold onto it, but if they left on good terms there wouldn't be any issues.

They didn't surrender, they defeated the Dominion in Cyrodiil but they couldn't fight on. So a treaty was formed, if they surrendered there wouldn't be a treaty and there wouldn't be a Legion but Dominion Soldiers and an Elven Lord sitting on the Ruby Throne.

Why would they let go of Skyrim?
Where does that "empire needs skyrim as much as skyrim need the empire" fit into that?
Torture rooms, executions etc is all I see with empire. That isnt someone who would be willing to just let go of Skyrim if Skyrim asked so.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Rome fell because it relied on barbarian auxilia while keeping only a low real roman army. When migration of nations hapened, kinsman wouldnt fight his kinsman and barbarians simply overran the empire. But that is not the point.

I agree with the second point, but where is a war of atrition if you sing peace at first moments notice?
Fighting on means exactly that, war of atrition. Elves with their high breeding standards, longevity etc cant match up to man in that kind of war. A kind of war empire didnt wage.


Because the cause is true true leadership may arise. As Ulfric challenged Toryg a worthy challenger shall challenge him. Perhaps even Dovakhin...
But geting independence is first and foremost.

Except they didn't sing peace at first moments notice, they rejected the Thalmor offer for peace many times during the Great War, they actually offered peace when they took the Imperial City, they didn't take it. It took five years of warfare, eight burning cities, thousands dead and the destruction of the entire Dominion Army within Cyrodiil, the hanging of their Thalmor Lord.

 

[Mookie]

The Empire let Hammerfell leave peacefully to continue the fight against the AD. Had Skyrim done what Hammerfell did, than chances are that the Empire would of allowed Skyrim to secede. However, with the fact that Ulfric murdered the High King, and was at large, they were not convinced that Skyrim wanted to leave the Empire. In their eyes, it was just some power crazy man using the WGC and Talos as an excuse to become high king himself.



There is a difference between peace and surrender. In fact, the Empire surrendered under the guise of a peace treaty. The facts is that the AD held all the cards and probably had far more leverage than the Empire did. Emperor Mede II did what he thought was best for the Empire and just delayed what would eventually happen, and that is another war with the AD.

Great job on preparations, with emperor geting killed by powerhungry politician/s
With cyrodilic mages spending all their time piling up secrets instead of doing something usefull.
People geting executed because someone cant be bothered to read a piece of paper...

 

[Mookie]

Except they didn't sing peace at first moments notice, they rejected the Thalmor offer for peace many times during the Great War, they actually offered peace when they took the Imperial City, they didn't take it. It took five years of warfare, eight burning cities, thousands dead and the destruction of the entire Dominion Army within Cyrodiil, the hanging of their Thalmor Lord.

Come on man, war was a stalemate that could have went in humans favor merely because of way men and mer do things. Human losses can be replaced. Elven losses are hard on them and not as easily replaced.
What was the position of UK during the blitz? No peace, no negotiations! They got bombed, they got floor wiped with them and their army and still kept going on.