The politics of Skyrim (as seen by a newcomer) - please debate!

[Psiberzerker]

And what about that one outside of Forelhost, he looks like a standup guy! {Sets the pokin' stick back down.}

 

[Psiberzerker]

I think I saw Nirnya talking to Anacano over by his room...

 

[The_Deadliest_Troll]

Not sure if appropriate..

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

See...this game provokes heated debate like this!!

Fantastic!

 

[Saozig]

{Pops some corn, and lurks...}

There's a gif for that:

As for me, I admittedly have some difficulties when RPing the political sphere of Skyrim because my IRL persuasions interfere too much. I'm independent to a fault and am deeply skeptical and mistrustful of parties and faction. It's a thorn in my side that TES games' stories tend to so heavily revolve around factions, because I want to be able to play my character more independently. But I do really like that the factions on the Civil War aren't black and white--I applaud Bethesda for that. I actually don't care who's "right" in the game. As I RP, I tend to fall back on my own core principles of "don't try to molest me and I won't blow your plops up" quasi-anarchistic leanings, so I just can't care that much who are the "winners". Politically parties never are truly "good" or "right" and anyone with any power is going to inevitably ooze of hubris and myopia, so when you choose allegiances you do so knowing your allies may do things you find repellant. It's a matter which allegiance can you make while not losing your own principles or integrity, or which will cost you the least in terms of compromising your principles.

What bothers me about game is this: while NPCs and the politics of the factions aren't black and white, your choices as a character are--you join one side, and that's that, or you go through the game ignoring all that crap--and this creates dissonances for me that are pretty annoying. As I've said in another thread, the Civil War quest would appeal to me more if there was some way to switch allegiances at certain points, or even walk away and "fail" the quest irredeemably, or to take it a step further, playing both sides and risk serious consequences if caught (an in-game DiD quest line would be totes awesome, yeah?). That would not only make it more comfortable for someone like me, it would also make it more realistic. Whenever you involve yourself with a faction IRL, it's not a static relationship. There are always things that "change the game" (no pun intended) for you and make you reconsider your allegiances. Why not in Skyrim? Why couldn't I go sign up with the Stormcloaks because I despise imperial control and then decide Ulfric's shooting himself in the foot and go "Hey, you wanna screw this up for everyone, go ahead, but I'm outta here!"

 

[Psiberzerker]

Well, the Thalmor are pretty Black (And color coded for your convenience!) but the part where people seem to have trouble is they're a sub-faction of a subfaction of a broader race. There's the High Elves, of which the AD is part of, and they have an exectutive wing called the Thalmor. It goes one way, Elves>Altmer>Aldmeri Dominion>Thalmor>Elenwen. The fallacy is reversing causality backwards on that hierarchy. Elenwen is a torturer, so the Thalmor torture, so the Aldmeri Dominion are Sadists, so all Altmer are evil, so I hate Elves. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Very good points! I really appreciate your contribution and agree wholeheartedly that a player driven grey area would be a very exciting proposition. Imagine playing the field and having a tense dialogue when you slip up...

The intrigue would be tangible!

 

[Harc]

Well, the Thalmor are pretty Black (And color coded for your convenience!) but the part where people seem to have trouble is they're a sub-faction of a subfaction of a broader race. There's the High Elves, of which the AD is part of, and they have an exectutive wing called the Thalmor. It goes one way, Elves>Altmer>Aldmeri Dominion>Thalmor>Elenwen. The fallacy is reversing causality backwards on that hierarchy. Elenwen is a torturer, so the Thalmor torture, so the Aldmeri Dominion are Sadists, so all Altmer are evil, so I hate Elves. It doesn't work that way.

Correct. The thalmor is the ruling body of the Aldmeri Dominion, it is actually considered the military of the dominion.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Which would be the Executive Wing. That's why the PotUS (The CEO of the US government) is the Commander in Chief of the Military, and not the Legislative, nor Judicial branches.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I

Well, the Thalmor are pretty Black (And color coded for your convenience!) but the part where people seem to have trouble is they're a sub-faction of a subfaction of a broader race. There's the High Elves, of which the AD is part of, and they have an exectutive wing called the Thalmor. It goes one way, Elves>Altmer>Aldmeri Dominion>Thalmor>Elenwen. The fallacy is reversing causality backwards on that hierarchy. Elenwen is a torturer, so the Thalmor torture, so the Aldmeri Dominion are Sadists, so all Altmer are evil, so I hate Elves. It doesn't work that way.

It's this depth that really intrigued me. I was drawn in by the subtleties and layers of the lore. The speculation, discussion and passions it provokes are really enriching.

 

[Tyer032392]

Personally, I hated Ulfric Stormcloak because even when I joined the Imperial Legion, I knew that Ulfric did not have the idea "best for Skyrim" that the StormCloaks had. This is even proven by many of the Nords throughout Skyrim as they also believe that Ulfric is only a power hungry fool that was actually adding the Aldermi Dominion by causing a civil war, killing the high king, and forcing the empire to station troops in Skyrim that could of been used to start up another war against the elves.

 

[Harc]

Personally, I hated Ulfric Stormcloak because even when I joined the Imperial Legion, I knew that Ulfric did not have the idea "best for Skyrim" that the StormCloaks had. This is even proven by many of the Nords throughout Skyrim as they also believe that Ulfric is only a power hungry fool that was actually adding the Aldermi Dominion by causing a civil war, killing the high king, and forcing the empire to station troops in Skyrim that could of been used to start up another war against the elves.

If Ulfric was a tool for the dominion, It would be easier for the Dominion to take Skyrim. seeing as the stormcloaks are only used to fighting in Skyrim. And the Thalmor, much larger and more proffesionaly trained, would take skyrim with ease. with help from more imperial reinforcements just in case. Though those are not our intentions either

 

[Tyer032392]

If Ulfric was a tool for the dominion, It would be easier for the Dominion to take Skyrim. seeing as the stormcloaks are only used to fighting in Skyrim. And the Thalmor, much larger and more proffesionaly trained, would take skyrim with ease. with help from more imperial reinforcements just in case. Though those are not our intentions either

What I was saying was that the Thalmor was using the Skyrim civil war as a tool to weaken the entire Empire, not just try to take over Skyrim, but possibly the Empire and create their own Empire. To be honest, even if the Aldermi Dominion asked the Empire for help in conquering Skyrim, I highly doubt the Empire would of allowed the Dominion to take yet more land from what was already a weakened empire. In the end, I personally think that the Aldermi Dominion wanted to see the Empire receive a crippling blow with the loss of Skyrim by session, and therefor would of made it easier for the Aldermi to take over both Skyrim and the Empire as both would not even had the strength to defend themselves against the onslaught.

 

[Psiberzerker]

It's a Xanatos Gambit. SCs win, the Empire is out of the way, weakened, and the region has little defense against magic. Empire wins, and they're weakened, distracted, and Infiltrated because of perceived co-dependance. If there's a tie, the constant battle for dominance lets them slip in, and take over unopposed. The World Eater shewed up, and it still played into their plans. About the only way to beat them is to put our differences asside, and cooperate, which will probably never happen.

 

[Dust651]

I would always choose Imperials. They want to unite Tamriel, and that's a good thing.
Ulfric only wants power, otherwise he wouldn't have killed the High King.
Long live the Empire! Long live the Emperor!

 

[Tyer032392]

I would always choose Imperials. They want to unite Tamriel, and that's a good thing.
Ulfric only wants power, otherwise he wouldn't have killed the High King.
Long live the Empire! Long live the Emperor!

Long live the Empire! long love the Emperor!

Except for the one who bowed down to the Aldermi Dominion, I think he should be replaced with the Dovahkiin and unite all Tamerial and wage war on the Dominion and destroy it.

 

[Desertpunk]

I think allot of people make the mistake of trying to make the Skyrim civil war a black and white affair, and quite frankly it isn't. You can list all the criteria you want to push your point but Bethesda has done a excellent and realistic take on a power struggle.

If Ulfric didn't have something to offer atleast ideal wise he wouldn't have half of Skyrim behind him. The Empire too has a point that they must stay strong and prepar for the next great war.

However both sides have their faults. General Tullius for one has zero respect for Skyrim culture and is the current Empire incarnate. A Centralized figure demaning obedience at the point of a sword. He even refuses to proclaim the civil war as a war, he instead calls his a simple rebellion that will be squashed sooner than later.

Also how quickly people forget that his soldiers were sending you a free and innocent citizen to be executed despite knowing you weren't with Ulfric. How many times do you think a innocent citizen of The Empire was killed alongside the Stormcloaks to just prove a point or to bypass that silly trail concept? If Elisif or any jarls stood up for their people they would be replaced or exiled, or killed. The Jarl's have no true say because Skyrim has no say on it's own lands.

The Empire doesn't care about anything but it's homeland Cyrodill, all the other providences should bend to their will like the old days. Tullius is the symptom of this mindset and boy does it show. What did the Empire do for Hammerfell? What did they do for Skyrim? Remember how they abandoned Morrowind? This is not the Septims Empire, this is not some defacto alliance of good guys.

Then you got the Stormcloaks, on the surface they have the right idea, Thalmor be damned. Freedom, right to govern yourself as a people and proclaim your own laws. However while the true hearted nords such as a Raloff believe this it becomes clear Ulfric is less than worthy to be King.

It's easy to see Ulfric is mostly using this as a excuse to become High King and take the power, yet even Tyrants tend to believe what they are doing is for the best. I believe Ulfric hates the Thalmor and he hates the Empire but he's also a politician.

As for the whole "being a Thalmor agent" nonsense.

The Great War
During the Great War, Ulfric was captured as a prisoner of war by the Dominion and tortured by Elenwen for information. While still imprisoned, the Dominion falsely led him to believe that the information they extracted from him was used in the sack of the White Gold Tower in Cyrodiil.Ulfric was then allowed to escape the Dominion prison, and he returned to Skyrim. He was also a distinguished war hero during the battle for the Imperial City, but the details of this were never mentioned.

In Markarth
When the Imperial Legion arrived to restore the rule of law, Ulfric refused them entry into the city until they also agreed free worship of Talos would be allowed. With chaos supposedly running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship, thus jeopardizing the peace agreement with the Aldmeri Dominion.

Eventually, The Empire rescinded upon the agreement due to pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion, and Ulfric and his militia were expelled from the city. This betrayal left Ulfric bitter towards the Empire and is considered to be the initial conception of the Stormcloak rebellion.

So Ulfric is a complicated man to be sure, but a nord version of the Thalmor? Look he is racist, and believes in Skyrim being totally for the Nords but he's not talking genocide here. Although in the slums he let's Dark Elves live in his city, he allows Argonians to work his docks and Khajiits merchants to camp near his city. Like I said racist or not he's a politician.

So in closing the true answer is neither side it worthy of joining, neither side has the right to rule and lead. They are both hypocrites, but welcome to reality there. In a perfect RPG you could say Empire be damned, Ulfric be damned i'll forge the next empire, but that's just not in the game.

 

[Psiberzerker]

WARNING: Dagmar has joined the party. {Grabs a box of Triscuits.}

 

[Docta Corvina]

One thing that I additionally love about the civil war questline and its many characters is the way in which you can see changes in and/or gain deeper insight about some of the key players as it all goes on. Such things go on to inform the context to even greater extents and it's really quite interesting - especially when you're privy to NPC testimony that often seems to bear out what you yourself have started to suspect (or not).

I haven't finished the Stormcloak side yet, so I don't have as much to say about its main personalities. But I will say that as you become more and more exposed to Ulfric, you hear things that increasingly lend credence to the idea that he's not all that he's cracked up to be. Much like the OP said, he's got his moments of petulance and self-interest. He's also got moments that are vaguely Mel Gibson!William Wallace-esque with his passionate appeals to a free Skyrim in his well-delivered speeches. And the latter moments are inspiring, admirable. But at the end of the day, though the most basic idea behind the Stormcloak cause may be a sympathetic one, he's not the man for the job. His people could have used a far better figurehead and leader. And if they won the conflict, they would most certainly need one who wasn't so problematic and quite honestly short-sighted in a multitude of ways. They need someone who cares about the land and the people, but is also concerned for the plurality within. For indeed, if the human experience is any indication, divisions serve to weaken, not strengthen. Ralof, I would argue, has more wisdom than he would likely give himself credit for and the ironic thing is the soldiers like him are what give me any sympathy at all for their side: compassionate, earnest, humble and not ravingly insular. Then again, the "every men" like Ralof and Hadvar are important points of contact for each side when it comes to you as the player. They don't speak with the fluff and bluster of the brass, but speak from their most common and practical experiences as rank and file on their respective sides. And what they say seems more than a touch prophetic.

I also like to be fair to Tullius wherever possible. It's true that he too undergoes something of a transformation through the storyline. And I think we have Rikke to thank for that mostly. He does begin as a dismissive character who, while perhaps intellectually aware of Nordic cultural aspects, does not wholly appreciate them. He has not yet internalized them in any real capacity, and perhaps he may never do so. Being from Cyrodiil, it's not difficult to understand such a disconnect. What's interesting to me further is that he eventually admits to "respect" for Nord ways, even though he states he may never understand them. That is a candid statement that I think could potentially stand in for many in Cyrodiil. No doubt there are just as many Nords who are leery of those in the Imperial heartland for the same reason. There is also great frustration on the General's part, it's all too apparent. I'm sure no one envies his position, especially as a character who also despises the Thalmor. I think it makes him a sympathetic figure in that regard, one much more human and less one dimensional. That is something that Bethesda clearly achieved on behalf of many of their characters in not only this questline, but several.

As for the beginning of the game and the Legion trying to behead me and all that, that's never weighed with me personally. No, not even from the first play-through. As much as people like to point to that and blame the entire Legion for a single careless, reckless captain's decision, there is no indication that any of the Stormcloaks honorably declared that I wasn't with them. They certainly didn't speak up (at least in our view as the player character) as much for the hapless horse thief. Rather, he's merely told to accept his fate with some courage. Yet such a circumstance would be an odd thing to condemn the entire Stormcloak faction with. That is to say, to expect them to have argued vigorously on my and Lokir's behalf. And I thusly have not held that as a reason to reject them.

What I saw at the start of the game was the chaos of war, the frustration and resentment with the overall situation that yielded predictable though not excusable callousness (on the part of the captain) and even obliviousness (on the part of a preoccupied Tullius). I still believe that's why we were shown a sympathetic Hadvar, to gain another "side" to the Legion and the Empire from the very start. I also (and obviously so) do not readily accept the idea that neither side deserves my intervention as the player character. This is not to argue that either side is pristine. But being fallible - as is the way of humanity - does not preclude me from supporting the side that I believe does the most good for the Tamriel plurality in the end.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

Absolutely awe inspiring post! Thank you kindly for your contribution.