The politics of Skyrim (as seen by a newcomer) - please debate!

[Skulli]

Stigwead, a character in your predicament is clearly devoid of mindless tribalism, so as you indicated, hence Nationalism and racial pride are the catalysts to where you are at exactly this moment.

Ulfric, like most religious nut dictators, sees a higher calling as a Templar's righteous get out of jail card for any atrocities or the body count.

He only halfway believes it's the "Call Of The Lord," the other half, as you say, is his hubris, arrogance, and sense of entitlement coupled with a bullies ego.

Ask yourself:

1) Was the mission correct, but it's leader flawed?
2) Is this war all a madman's ill-timed greed with charisma icing on top?
3) Is there a whole other way everyone is missing to choose as a path, even if it's as "an Army of One?"

But MOST IMPORTANTLY:

from this step forth, what path allows you to sleep at night?

 

[Skulli]

...My character on the other hand, never sleeps at night.

She Listens.

 

[Dagmar]

All Thalmor are Altmer, not all Altmer are Thalmor.

This. Anyone who asserts to the contrary simply has no idea what they're talking about. Equating all Altmer to being the Thalmor is the equivalent of equating all people of Germanic descent to the Nazis. It's irrational and refuted by the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe. The Thalmor are the ruling class of the Aldmeri Dominion and their rise to power was far from universally supported by the Altmer of Summerset Isle. They ascended to their position by guile, lies, intimidation, assassination and ultimately by overthrowing the rightful Kings and Queens of Summerset Isle. During their rise to power and reign of terror many Altmer left Summerset Isle to escape their oppression.

The 4 volumes of Rising Threat are the writings of one of the Altmer refugees, Lathenil of Sunhold. It paints a very unflattering picture of the Thalmor from the perspective of an Altmer. His violent death was in all likelihood the work of the Thalmor for the publication of his books, much like the disappearance of Rynandor the prominent seer mage of the Crystal Tower was probably also the result of assassination by the Thalmor after he was exiled by them for questioning their lies about ending the Oblivion crisis in Summerset Isle. Potentate Ocato, the ruler of the Empire after the Oblivion Crisis, was an Altmer and opposed to the Thalmor as he was familiar with Thalmor's history as a radical and anti-Imperial group. He was also assassinated, most likely by the Thalmor as a potential threat to their seizing power in Summerset Isle. It's more probable than not that most Altmer in the Empire and Hammerfell aren't fond of the Thalmor.

 

[Crooksin]

It was definitely a difficult decision for me as well. When I had first started playing Skyrim, I was completely lore-retarded, for lack of a better word and it was mostly due to lack of interest. I had played through Oblivion, but I barely took any of it with me, more so played the game then pay attention to it if that makes any sense. It was only till I started posting on this forum that I really paid attention to the politics of Skyrim.

Immediately I gravitated toward the Stormcloaks, without even completely understanding what they were about. I thought, rebels fighting against an "Empire", figured they had to be right because there rebels, right? It wasn't until I played through the Empire side that I realized how complicated the situation was.

Playing through as the Empire opened my eyes to the fact that maybe the Stormcloaks aren't everything they are cracked up to be, I especially found out a lot about their leader. As a Stormcloak, Ulfric seems like the perfect leader for them, even if he is a bit selfish and he is everything a Nord should be. The thing is, I don't blame him for doing what he's doing. From what I've gathered from my own observations of the Nords and their customs, they tend to talk with their emotions rather than with their thoughts. If someone came and took away their religion, Ulfric being the power-hungry leader he is took that chance to fight. I do legitimately think he dislikes the Thalmor to the extreme and I also believe he is fighting for freedom to an extent and he believes everything he says but I think the real reason why he's doing it is to ascend to power. I believe this because why would he kill the High King if he was so honorable and truly only wanted what was best. For me at least it was what sealed the deal on my perception of Ulfric.

The thing that keeps me away from the Stormcloaks is their misplaced blame. They think two dimensionally, and they don't think of whats beyond the war they are fighting now, they only see blood. They are fighting their own people rather then the common enemy all in the name of freedom. It just doesn't make sense to me and its so ass-backwards, I can't get behind it. Ulfric is a great military leader though, and I think if there was anyone to lead a rebellion, he would be the man for the job.

The Thalmor is the greatest enemy of Tamriel, and the only way to defeat the Dominion is to unite what's left as a united front. I see alot of Stormcloak sympathizers agree with that notion, agree that everyone must unite to prevail yet they support a man who is looking to divide his people, to divide the Empire and to weaken the only power in the region that has a chance. If Ulfric is victorious, his relationship with the Empire will be shaky at best and if the Thalmor are able to take out the Empire, they will be on Ulfric's doorstep. What will he tell his people then? Yes, the banning of Talos goes against everything I believe in, whether my character is a Nord or not, but as its stated in the game without Ulfric there was barely a ban anyway. Do you really think that the Emperor would spend so much time fighting an enemy and losing countless men just to give up and side with them in the end? It's only to stall operations, its quite evident, and it seemed to be working up until Ulfric.

It's really the only reason why I pick the Empire, because its the only way to unify everyone. The Nords are a stubborn kind, and don't have the best relationship with many races but under the Empire's banner that is all forgotten. On their own, I can see everyone fighting the Thalmor for their own glory which will only prove to turn out badly. Even still, as a Nord I almost always pick the Stormcloaks but as any other race, it's the Empire for me. Most storylines similar to Skyrim's, you can still kind of see who is truly better but I love how Bethesda has shared the plopstiness of the situation with everyone involved.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

At this point, can I just thank everybody for their contribution thus far. I'm really humbled to be in the company of such intelligent and reflective people who take their gaming seriously!

It's comforting to see that so many of us are emotionally and intellectually involved in Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole. I was beginning to worry I had invested too much gravity to this game, but I am honoured to share such a wonderful experience with such a wonderful community!

Seriously. Thank you.

 

[Moris]

The long thread on this topic is a big part of what attracted me to these forums. I appreciate the huge depth of debate, and the delving into lore.

But I am wary of saying there must be an absolute correct choice out of the context of any given character's backstory and their emotional reactions to events in games. I've played both sides and when, as an Imperial legate, my character was called upon to kill Ulfric, she was heartbroken. She did it (refusing to use Tullius' sword), and then mourned the loss for weeks after and tumbled into an emotional wreck, eventually joining the DB and completing their quests with cold hearted vigor.

History is lived in the blood and experienced by the heart long before it's written and interpreted and revised, and a great many essential participants have been quite ignorant of the facts, such as they are. No reason a character must know anything other than what he believes to be true. The only requirement then is that he be true to himself.

How we, as players with hands on keyboards and controllers, must examine the events and the lore and the history is a different matter. The debates here have been very entertaining and caused me to think about the subject a great deal in a way I might not have otherwise. For that I'm deeply grateful. But I find thinking about matters without a reference to a specific character I am roleplaying to be oddly challenging.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

He is probably a thalmor advisor to the Imperial legion. Given the rank legate because he cant advise Tullius as a Questor or something

Not very likely, he seems to despise the Thalmor.

Unless that post was meant as a joke, I really can't tell.

 

[Psiberzerker]

At this point, can I just thank everybody for their contribution thus far. I'm really humbled to be in the company of such intelligent and reflective people who take their gaming seriously!

It's comforting to see that so many of us are emotionally and intellectually involved in Skyrim and Tamriel as a whole. I was beginning to worry I had invested too much gravity to this game, but I am honoured to share such a wonderful experience with such a wonderful community!

Seriously. Thank you.

Bethesda obviously put a lot of work into it. That's the main reason why I hate to see it reduced to a mindless munchkinfest.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Not very likely, he seems to despise the Thalmor.

Unless that post was meant as a joke, I really can't tell.

That's just what a Thalmor plant would say!

 

[Omega Dragon]

It's actually been a long time since I played the whole story, but when thinking about the whole thing, I've come to view the empire as Magneto views Shaw when he says the following thing to Shaw, "Everything you did make me stronger. It made me the weapon I am today. It's the truth. I've known it all along. You are my creator.... If you're in there, I'd like you to know that I agree with every word you said. We are the future. But, unfortunately, you killed my mother. This is what we're gonna do."

Every single faction in Tamriel is full of plops (except for my fellow vampires & werewolves); I don't care who you are, the "racism" is by far the least of my worries. On the other hand, Torygg was a fool. The point Ulfric wanted to make, and rightfully so, was that the Empire needed a strong leader if it expected to handle any external threat. To which I'm going to prove upon joining the Stormcloaks - which cannot be done in joining the Imperials.

 

[Psiberzerker]

Omega Dragon, I really like that metaphor. That was the exact point (In the movie, Shaw is actually a mashup of 3 characters from the comics) where Eric gave up, and became Magneto.

 

[Omega Dragon]

Omega Dragon, I really like that metaphor. That was the exact point (In the movie, Shaw is actually a mashup of 3 characters from the comics) where Eric gave up, and became Magneto.

I don't think it's that Eric gave up, just that he always had a feeling about humans eventually declaring war on mutants that Xavier & Shaw both contributed to his understanding of which was only put in stone when the Russian & American militaries equally deciding to launch nukes on the island. But that's elsewhere...

 

[Tyrone]

Not sure if everyone moved on from Thalmor, but as for Legate Farendil in Riften, it is not likely he is a thalmor emissary. That would be like the United States promoting a chinese ambassador to general and then giving him control of US soldiers. To further disprove that all altmer are evil, take a look at the stablemaster of Windhelm and the priest of arkay in falkreath. High Elves are as diverse as the nords, while some are thalmor, some are just average people.

As for my personal opinion on the empire/stormcloak war, I personally would believe in Talos, but I am still unsure if I would join the stormcloaks or not. I would likely be a bystander, unless forced to join a side. In all means do I hate Ulfric and Galmar, but I have taken a liking to the average soldiers like Ralof, who fight for the right of religious freedom, something that is truly admirable to me.

As for the part of "needing" the empire to defeat the aldmeri dominion, I don't believe that. The thalmor are more likely to attack Cyrodiil than Skyrim, already having experience there and if you win, you have a launching point into any part of the already-weakened Tamriel you want. Plus it will be easier to move troops into Cyrodiil, becuase the Aldmeri Dominion controls both Valenwood and Elsewyr. If the thalmor were to take Cyrodiil, their forces would be weakened allowing an independent skyrim to swoop in, which would likely gain the support of the locals too. I think it is more of a case of the empire needing skyrim.

 

[Psiberzerker]

I'm with ^Him. I stayed out fo the Civil War personally, because they're Both wrong, for different reasons. I later created saves to run thought the possibilities (Including turncoating, both ways) for completion, but I never believed in either of their causes enough to ignore the Atrocities.

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

I am very much in the process of creating and writing a fan fiction concerning the signature below...it will be set at the height of the Civil War and encompasses the Thalmor taking advantage of the anarchy in Skyrim.

The Dwemer who will be the protagonist of this piece is intended to be a stoic anti-hero who neither desires nor supports either faction but instead remains true to very logical, pragmatic and almost calculating decisiveness.

The Civil War merely becomes a backdrop to the reignition of an Et'Ada / Dwemer war that will be epic in spectacle and resonance...

I only hope I don't disappoint!

 

[Lady Imp]

Lady Imp's Cliffs Notes Version of Her Thoughts On This Whole Politics Thing:

1) A house divided against itself cannot stand. I was thought about this when I recently ran to Windhelm to see who was sitting on the throne because I honestly forgot which side that character had gone with (no lie...I forget things easily, that's why I take extensive notes on things lol). He told me that sure, the Empire is taken care of, but now they have to worry about the Aldmeri Dominion. I almost pissed myself when I heard him say that. Now, I like the Nord race, my characters are almost always Nords, they're good fighters and a strong and hearty people, but does the man honestly think he's going to be able to keep the AD at bay without allies? I honestly think he's done a good job at alienating the rest of the continent in one way, shape or form, from his dealings with the Empire to his haughty "Skyrim for the Nords" mentality. He's gonna need to make some friends, and fast. If there's one thing those little elves are good at, it's kicking you when you're down.

2) Oh, Titus Meade Part Deux...the Aldmeri Dominion presents you with terms, you scoff at them, send thousands of men to die, kick some AD butt in the Battle of the Red Ring, and then you crawl back to the Aldmeri Dominion looking for a treaty and accept the previous terms that they presented you with in the first place???? *facepalm* No wonder you pissed off people, bro!!

Spoiler

Assassinating you at the end of the Dark Brotherhood's questline was perhaps the most satisfying quest ever, if only because I find myself wanting to stab stupid people IRL. This just let me do it and not do 25 to life.

3) That whole Markarth incident....not gonna lie, Ulfric Stormcloak did have a legitimate gripe there. I will give him that one. The man gets promised free reign to worship Talos if they retake the Reach, they do the job and then the powers that be come in when it's done and say "oh! Just kidding!!"???? I get his whole anger with the Empire, I really do, but how he handled it at this point in the history just feels like suicide. Patience is a virtue, they say, and sadly the man has none. He does have some passion, I'll give him that.

4) Now's my turn to speak like a soldier: can someone please tell me what exactly it was I was fighting for? The war ended, and I honestly feel like nothing has changed. I still run into Thalmor on the streets. I still find people worshiping Talos in secret. My amulet of Talos is hidden beneath my armour. The East Empire Company is still doing business in Solitude. And no one's been officially named as High King of Skyrim. So, can someone please explain why it is I had to watch my comrades die and spill so much blood? I feel like I became a killing machine to satisfy some man's dangerously large ego and lust for vengeance.

We are the dead. Shot days ago.
We lived, we died, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.

 

[Tyrone]

I'm with ^Him. I stayed out fo the Civil War personally, because they're Both wrong, for different reasons. I later created saves to run thought the possibilities (Including turncoating, both ways) for completion, but I never believed in either of their causes enough to ignore the Atrocities.

This, exactly. The reason I wouldn't join the stormcloaks even if I ignored Ulfric and Galmar is that, are the stormcloak soldiers ignorant for following them? I also feel like the empire is just taking advantage of skyrim, not really returnimg much back. Not as much people would rebel if things were all fine and dandy.

 

[Psiberzerker]

The Empire is an Empire. They want to conquer the known world, that's what Empires do. Every game I've played in the series so far starts with you in chains, Imperial chains. All my Skyrim characters kind of take that whole abortive execution for border crossing thing personally.

The stormcloaks are the Brute Squad. My definition of an Unregulated Militia. Ulfric is letting his Hold, and city rot, and slide off into the sea. He's got a serial killer, rampant bandits, starvation, poverty, suffering children, and a brewing race-war because he wants to be High King.

The Thalmor are Eugenic Nihilists. Nobody wins with their plan. Am I missing anyone?

 

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

This, exactly. The reason I wouldn't join the stormcloaks even if I ignored Ulfric and Galmar is that, are the stormcloak soldiers ignorant for following them? I also feel like the empire is just taking advantage of skyrim, not really returnimg much back. Not as much people would rebel if things were all fine and dandy.

Skyrim does seem to be portrayed as a backwater plaything of both sides...

The masses kept sedated and manipulated by whomever rules them. I love the Nord people but they are being treat like mushrooms here...kept in the dark with plops heaped on them!

 

[Docta Corvina]

All serious reflection and speculation aside, I think that upon coming to the end of the Stormcloak questline finally, which I'm playing on PC, I'm gonna work some magic so that I can turn on Ulfric and Galmar and resurrect Tullius and Rikke. Because I honestly can't stomach the thought of the former running the show and the latter dead at their hands. Aww HELL nah...

Pretty sure I'm gonna two-time the hell out of them, which isn't exactly unheard of since in that file I am playing a very bitter, cynical sell-sword from Valenwood.