The politics of Skyrim (as seen by a newcomer) - please debate!

[Stigweard Ruadhan]

All serious reflection and speculation aside, I think that upon coming to the end of the Stormcloak questline finally, which I'm playing on PC, I'm gonna work some magic so that I can turn on Ulfric and Galmar and resurrect Tullius and Rikke. Because I honestly can't stomach the thought of the former running the show and the latter dead at their hands. Aww HELL nah...

Pretty sure I'm gonna two-time the hell out of them, which isn't exactly unheard of since in that file I am playing a very bitter, cynical sell-sword from Valenwood.

My thoughts exactly...as mentioned in my OP, I got half way through the quest line and really had a crisis of faith in them. It felt as though I had betrayed the Nord people by presenting those two as their rulers. Their intentions were initially honourable and true, but their delivery; their bitterness and thirst for one-upmanship...it really left a foul taste.

 

[Moris]

My thoughts exactly...as mentioned in my OP, I got half way through the quest line and really had a crisis of faith in them. It felt as though I had betrayed the Nord people by presenting those two as their rulers. Their intentions were initially honourable and true, but their delivery; their bitterness and thirst for one-upmanship...it really left a foul taste.

Agreed. It can have that effect, if you're not revelling in it along with them -- the bitterness, I mean.

My character did not take too kindly to Tullius' I-hate-giving-speeches (but I guess I have to in order to wrap up this annoying little incident) when he's talking about a division that cut into the heart of a people, divided families against themselves, and destroyed so many lives. He seems so incredibly blasé about it as though it's not about his people (because it's just the Nords, of course), and it's merely his job. Cold. He struck me as immensely and incredibly cold.

 

[Docta Corvina]

My character did not take too kindly to Tullius' I-hate-giving-speeches (but I guess I have to in order to wrap up this annoying little incident) when he's talking about a division that cut into the heart of a people, divided families against themselves, and destroyed so many lives. He seems so incredibly blasé about it as though it's not about his people (because it's just the Nords, of course), and it's merely his job. Cold. He struck me as immensely and incredibly cold.

Personally, he struck me as an aloof character but not necessarily because he doesn't care about Nord lives. He's a tad cynical, reserved, and frustrated. And maybe in some way he's expressing that frustration in his seemingly detached attitude at times. Seems to me that from his vantage point, it's that blasted Nordic sense of stubborn honor that has fueled the current struggle. He sees what's happening as advantageous to the Thalmor (a universal menace) and as I've said elsewhere, I could appreciate and sympathize with such bitter feelings.

To me, he exemplifies the "can't teach an old dog new tricks" saying. He's an older character, from a different province and associated culture, and perhaps he really doesn't understand the Nord culture - he himself admits as much. I think it's a good sign that he states that he has found a respect for the Nord cultural aspects even though he may never really understand them. He doesn't "get it" like Nords get it, but he at least admits that it's worthy of its own esteem.

 

[Moris]

Well, each of us is going to bring our own experiences, preferences, biases, etc in to how we interpret events, even when we're roleplaying and trying hard to escape our usual modes of thinking.

I minored in History, so you'd think I'd love it, yet the classical period was always my least favorite. But I adored Charlemagne, even if one might argue the Carolingian dynasty was a continuation in its appearance as Holy Roman Empire . If something as trivial as holding a warm cup of liquid tends to make us favorably predisposed to a stranger, or writing on paper attached to a heavier clipboard makes us take the forms we're filling out more seriously, is it any surprise that my Frankish fondness for long hair and red beards (and less than stellar memories of long lectures on bloodthirsty caesars) might make me yearn for a less self-consciously civilized leader?

ETA: I admit: I cannot rationalize it. Some things center around emotional responses. It's fascinating how different they can be, from one person to the next. A credit to Bethesda for making such a range of reactions possible.

 

[JClarke1953]

I've been finding my opinion of the Imperial's have changed somewhat after being on Solstheim. Both side's have their own agenda's, some good, some not. But after hearing how those on Solstheim were treated, and done to, I'm looking at what side to be on with a bit more hesitation, and thought.

True, this is "only" a game, I do think it can have real world effects on what/how we make choices for what reason's. to join this Guild or that Brotherhood isn't as simple as it seems, especially if one wants to keep out of "evils" way. But, can one go through Skyrim, and now Solstheim without making the hard choice of what is "good" and what isn't.

Will you end in " the needs of the few are greater than the many"? Or the needs of the many are greater than the few"? I like Solstheim, but for now, I've yet to see any young there, of any race. My char is an "Outlander", even tho' I've helped and have become a "citizen" of Ravenrock. So, live here and help my "new" homeland, or to return, kill Alduin and choose between the Imperial's or Stormcloak's?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Well, each of us is going to bring our own experiences, preferences, biases, etc in to how we interpret events, even when we're roleplaying and trying hard to escape our usual modes of thinking.

I minored in History, so you'd think I'd love it, yet the classical period was always my least favorite. But I adored Charlemagne, even if one might argue the Carolingian dynasty was a continuation in its appearance as Holy Roman Empire . If something as trivial as holding a warm cup of liquid tends to make us favorably predisposed to a stranger, or writing on paper attached to a heavier clipboard makes us take the forms we're filling out more seriously, is it any surprise that my Frankish fondness for long hair and red beards (and less than stellar memories of long lectures on bloodthirsty caesars) might make me yearn for a less self-consciously civilized leader?

ETA: I admit: I cannot rationalize it. Some things center around emotional responses. It's fascinating how different they can be, from one person to the next. A credit to Bethesda for making such a range of reactions possible.

Hey, excellent! Another historian. Conversely, as it turns out, I got a Masters degree in Classical Studies (hope to go back for a PhD in Ancient History), with a passionate focus on Roman history and Latin. Never had much time for the Viking types. No doubt that has influenced my preferences since the start, though my reasoning has most definitely gotten more thorough as the months have gone on and I've engaged the lore all the more.

It's true that at the end of the day, we make of it having been informed by not only what we see in the game, but also what's already in our minds. For instance: comparatively, yes, the racial policies in Windhelm in particular could be more oppressive and even outright violent - it "could be worse". But it still strikes me as a player in ways that make it really hard for me to trust Ulfric and his administration. For others, it's far less consequential.

Simply put, it is what it is.

 

[Moris]

It's true that at the end of the day, we make of it having been informed by not only what we see in the game, but also what's already in our minds. For instance: comparatively, yes, the racial policies in Windhelm in particular could be more oppressive and even outright violent - it "could be worse". But it still strikes me as a player in ways that make it really hard for me to trust Ulfric and his administration. For others, it's far less consequential.

Absolutely. And how disappointing, after doing the quests for the Argonians in the docks and seeing how they live and how cheerfully they try to remain, to hear Brunwulf Free-Winter explain that, alas, "for their own safety", their situation still cannot be improved. Different mouth, same excuse.

On the other hand, side with the SC's and listen to Adrianne tell you how she'd no longer have a business if she weren't married to a Nord, and Arcadia cannot sell potions to the SC's because they insist she is likely poisoning them.

For some, seeing the segregation in Windhelm is what cuts most deeply into their hearts.

For others, it's watching accused Talos worshippers being dragged down the road by Thalmor justiciars, and knowing that merely possessing an amulet (like Ogmund) can result in torture and death.

Of course, who is ultimately responsible for the state of either of those things is a matter of debate. And your previous comments on those specific matters in other threads are hard to argue with.

 

[Chowder138]

See...this game provokes heated debate like this!!

Fantastic!

A testament to how awesome TES is. You will never see someone debating over the "lore" of Call of Duty.

 

[Chowder138]

Also, I never saw any mention of Talos in your (very good) post. Care to speak your mind on that subject?

 

[Docta Corvina]

Absolutely. And how disappointing, after doing the quests for the Argonians in the docks and seeing how they live and how cheerfully they try to remain, to hear Brunwulf Free-Winter explain that, alas, "for their own safety", their situation still cannot be improved. Different mouth, same excuse.

On the other hand, side with the SC's and listen to Adrianne tell you how she'd no longer have a business if she weren't married to a Nord, and Arcadia cannot sell potions to the SC's because they insist she is likely poisoning them.

For some, seeing the segregation in Windhelm is what cuts most deeply into their hearts.

For others, it's watching accused Talos worshippers being dragged down the road by Thalmor justiciars, and knowing that merely possessing an amulet (like Ogmund) can result in torture and death.

Of course, who is ultimately responsible for the state of either of those things is a matter of debate. And your previous comments on those specific matters in other threads are hard to argue with.

I suppose that when it comes to Brunwulf and the Argonians, I at least take some measure of comfort in his expressed interest in doing something in a gradual process. I never got any indication of the sort from Ulfric and that to me is telling. I would definitely like to hold Brunwulf accountable as a leader, though it appears that's beyond the scope of this game. I am happy that things already begin improving for the Dunmer, but it's not far enough in my opinion. That said, taking stock of the reality in Windhelm, a status quo that has been what it is for years isn't going to change without a hitch overnight. There is some inherent danger in it all, especially given how tense things already are in the city. I realize the practical need for changes in well-timed waves but as you rightfully said, it is disappointing.

It's amazing how Beth was able to tear us in so many different directions with it all, that's for certain. As a creative writer, I have to give credit where credit's most definitely due.

 

[feliciano182]

Personally, he struck me as an aloof character but not necessarily because he doesn't care about Nord lives. He's a tad cynical, reserved, and frustrated. And maybe in some way he's expressing that frustration in his seemingly detached attitude at times. Seems to me that from his vantage point, it's that blasted Nordic sense of stubborn honor that has fueled the current struggle. He sees what's happening as advantageous to the Thalmor (a universal menace) and as I've said elsewhere, I could appreciate and sympathize with such bitter feelings.

One thing to point out in this regard is that Tullius is a military through and through, the guy cares about the job getting done, in that sense I sometimes got into a few odds with him, thinking he was perhaps a bit too cold and calculating, which is precisely what makes his character great, he does feel like your goddamn superior officer, like your boss.

At the same time, Tullius' view of Skyrim is rather pragmatic in contrast to the romantic, honorable mindset of the nords, who go into battle awaiting Sovngarde and it's halls of mead and blah blah blah. Hence why it's understandable that in a fantasy game, people wouldn't like him much...............their loss !

 

[Moris]

One thing to point out in this regard is that Tullius is a military through and through, the guy cares about the job getting done, in that sense I sometimes got into a few odds with him, thinking he was perhaps a bit too cold and calculating, which is precisely what makes his character great, he does feel like your goddamn superior officer, like your boss.

At the same time, Tullius' view of Skyrim is rather pragmatic in contrast to the romantic, honorable mindset of the nords, who go into battle awaiting Sovngarde and it's halls of mead and blah blah blah. Hence why it's understandable that in a fantasy game, people wouldn't like him much...............their loss !

Yeah, I have liked very few of my bosses, and certainly not the ones that were like him. I think you're definitely on to something.

Mind you, that's part of the issue with both leaders. Tullius is just doing his job -- for someone else. Ulfric is just doing his thing -- for himself. Neither seem to be overly committed to the people actually losing their lives over it.

 

[feliciano182]

Mind you, that's part of the issue with both leaders. Tullius is just doing his job -- for someone else. Ulfric is just doing his thing -- for himself. Neither seem to be overly committed to the people actually losing their lives over it.

Uhm, all soldiers serve someone else, be it a leader or a government, I mean, I think we can criticize Tullius for being kind of a dick, but for serving The Empire of Tamriel ? Well ...

 

[Moris]

Uhm, all soldiers serve someone else, be it a leader or a government, I mean, I think we can criticize Tullius for being kind of a dick, but for serving The Empire of Tamriel ? Well ...

What I mean is that his attitude, that he and his men are fundamentally different from "those Nords" whom he doesn't understand, does give a very distinct sense of his soldiers as an occupying force, even if many of them are local recruits. In that way, he does not seem particularly concerned with the Nords as much more than an inconvenience to the empire.

 

[Psiberzerker]

"Just Following Orders" is known as the Nuremberg defense. It basically is no excuse for doing things against your morals because you have a superior to blame for it.

 

[Grogmar Ghrobash]

2) Oh, Titus Meade Part Deux...the Aldmeri Dominion presents you with terms, you scoff at them, send thousands of men to die, kick some AD butt in the Battle of the Red Ring, and then you crawl back to the Aldmeri Dominion looking for a treaty and accept the previous terms that they presented you with in the first place???? *facepalm* No wonder you pissed off people, bro!!

Spoiler

Assassinating you at the end of the Dark Brotherhood's questline was perhaps the most satisfying quest ever, if only because I find myself wanting to stab stupid people IRL. This just let me do it and not do 25 to life.

I didn't want to have to discuss this matter again, but this is the second post I've seen that's said this so I couldn't resist. Titus Meade only accepted the terms of the W.G.C because he had no other choice in the matter, his military was weakened and the rest of Cyrodiil was surrounded by the Thalmor. Continuing the war would have been the end of the Empire, and probably the rest of Tamriel if the Thalmor were to succeed in their war. The Battle of The Red Ring was only a very minor victory in part of the Empires countless defeats by the Thalmor, surrendering had saved more lives than it would have by continuing the war. Obviously the conditions to the W.G.C weren't in Titus Meade's best interest as he had already declined it once, but there really was no other choice. The most controversial part about the W.G.C, for the Nords atleast, was the b anning of worship for Talos. The Empire had been lenient about this until Ulfric had forced them to crack down on it, resulting in the Thalmor now dragging people into the streets and torturing them for worshiping Talos. All in all, I really can't see how you can blame Titus Meade for any of this.

 

[Shadow King]

what would it take to make the empire great again to make them stronger, i think they have spread there resources to thin over the provinces they inhabit, and they actually look weak because of this. i think there still strong maybe if they gatherd all there troops into cyrodil and started pushing back into the provinces that may help. if there forces where more concentrated and not spread so thin over the lands they might just have a chance to regain tamriel.

 

[feliciano182]

What I mean is that his attitude, that he and his men are fundamentally different from "those Nords" whom he doesn't understand, does give a very distinct sense of his soldiers as an occupying force, even if many of them are local recruits. In that way, he does not seem particularly concerned with the Nords as much more than an inconvenience to the empire.

Yes, I see what you mean now, Tullius is certainly lacking some tact on the diplomatic end, most specially when he's beheading people left and right.

"Just Following Orders" is known as the Nuremberg defense. It basically is no excuse for doing things against your morals because you have a superior to blame for it.

Aaaaaaaand where does this come from ?

 

[Lady Imp]

I didn't want to have to discuss this matter again, but this is the second post I've seen that's said this so I couldn't resist. Titus Meade only accepted the terms of the W.G.C because he had no other choice in the matter, his military was weakened and the rest of Cyrodiil was surrounded by the Thalmor. Continuing the war would have been the end of the Empire, and probably the rest of Tamriel if the Thalmor were to succeed in their war. The Battle of The Red Ring was only a very minor victory in part of the Empires countless defeats by the Thalmor, surrendering had saved more lives than it would have by continuing the war. Obviously the conditions to the W.G.C weren't in Titus Meade's best interest as he had already declined it once, but there really was no other choice. The most controversial part about the W.G.C, for the Nords atleast, was the b anning of worship for Talos. The Empire had been lenient about this until Ulfric had forced them to crack down on it, resulting in the Thalmor now dragging people into the streets and torturing them for worshiping Talos. All in all, I really can't see how you can blame Titus Meade for any of this.

Valid point. I guess I was viewing it more from a "hindsight is 20-20" perspective, as in if TM3 was gonna accept the crap treaty, why didn't he do it in the first place, thus not sending a crapton of people to their deaths. Sadly, I have the advantage of being able to sit here and say "well dummy, you shoulda done blah blah blah and maybe you wouldn't be in this serious pickle here" before subjecting myself to a serious foot-in-mouth situation.

 

[Moris]

Yes, I see what you mean now, Tullius is certainly lacking some tact on the diplomatic end, most specially when he's beheading people left and right.

Yes, that's a decent way to put it. For the common person, after all, perceptions and personality are very often more significant than tactical skill.

On your previous remark that Tullius is very much like a boss, I was just reminded that, in his speech after the fall of Windhelm, he ends by telling his men he's just given them a raise!

And I don't say "men" by accident. I just noticed in my last playthrough that every single Imperial soldier fighting in Windhelm (except me) was male, and Tullius referred to us all as "men". And strangely enough, a striking number -- I want to say far more than half -- of the SC's we fought were women. It was actually quite jarring for me.

ETA: I guess Rikke was there. But I don't remember seeing her fight until we entered the palace.